IVA and the reality of debt

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Roux58
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by Roux58 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:04 pm
The problem with an IVA is that it perpetuates the myth that there is a debt of money owed the creditor. The financial sector claims to loan sums of money via various outlets, banks, building societies, credit card companies etc. etc. But there are no audited accounts from any these service providers, that would show evidence for the customer that there is an actual loan of money. If a creditor can show proof of equal consideration that shows that they have risked their own money, that is the definition of a debt to be paid back.
The reality is there is no debt of money owed to this corrupt financial system. The financial system only facilitates the availability of fiat currency. They are service providers and nothing more. Notice these service providers never invoice their customer like a regular business. They have provided a service, and they are entitled their reward of payment. So why do they not ask to be paid? They claim to provide a service to their customer, so what is the problem? The answer is they cannot because to claim that you owe a sum of money to them, which an invoice would show, would incriminate themselves and expose their fraudulent activity of charging interest on the fictitious loan they claim to have provided.
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Foggy
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by Foggy » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:13 pm
So, you have never had a credit card statement, giving account and requesting payment? You have never signed a loan agreement acknowledging receipt of the monies and agreeing to make specified payments ? You infer that all of the people on this forum, who acknowledge their debts have never had the money they are attempting to repay.

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion and version of the truth as you see it.

Might I ask what your interest in IVA's might be, apart from the need to de-bunk the industry ?
Roux58
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by Roux58 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:42 pm
Foggy wrote:
So, you have never had a credit card statement, giving account and requesting payment? You have never signed a loan agreement acknowledging receipt of the monies and agreeing to make specified payments ? You infer that all of the people on this forum, who acknowledge their debts have never had the money they are attempting to repay.

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion and version of the truth as you see it.

Might I ask what your interest in IVA's might be, apart from the need to de-bunk the industry ?


A statement is not a request to be paid.
Roux58
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by Roux58 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:03 pm
Roux58 wrote:
Foggy wrote:
So, you have never had a credit card statement, giving account and requesting payment? You have never signed a loan agreement acknowledging receipt of the monies and agreeing to make specified payments ? You infer that all of the people on this forum, who acknowledge their debts have never had the money they are attempting to repay.

Of course, you are entitled to your own opinion and version of the truth as you see it.

Might I ask what your interest in IVA's might be, apart from the need to de-bunk the industry ?


A statement is not a request to be paid.


Allow me to put it this way. You employ the services of a plumber. On completion of the task, you set him/her they will expect payment for their service. If you're happy, you will be glad to pay.
If the plumber sends you a statement of the amount you have no obligation to pay. But if the plumber sends you an invoice, the plumber is then claiming ownership of the service provided and maybe there are parts included.
The point is, the plumber has now formally claimed legal ownership and you now bound by law to pay him. If a credit card company issued an invoice, they are then claiming legal ownership of the fiat currency they have facilitated in there service to you; but they never issue an invoice because that would be fraud.
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Ryan
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by Ryan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:10 pm
Like Foggy I'm not really sure where you are going with this.

So if I for instance applied for a loan (on which I would receive an annual statement) and the money would show in my bank account as being received from the Lender and I then purchased a car with this money - you are saying there is no evidence that this money was loaned to me?
Roux58
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by Roux58 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:29 pm
Ryan wrote:
Like Foggy I'm not really sure where you are going with this.

So if I for instance applied for a loan (on which I would receive an annual statement) and the money would show in my bank account as being received from the Lender and I then purchased a car with this money - you are saying there is no evidence that this money was loaned to me?


When you signed the application form with your living signature that is a promissory note.
Our promissory note an equitable bond of monetary value accepted by the bank then became an asset of the bank; and accounted on their books.
It is the power of our living signature on the promissory note which creates the currency .. $$ ££ €€.
Our promissory note provided and received with our consent, but then it was recorded as an asset of the bank without our permission.
The equal value consideration that should be evident to us for our note, the bank never delivers.
The bank only gave a deposit slip as a receipt for the promissory note we gave them.
Their demand for collateral from you is fraudulent, as they have your promissory note of equal value to the credit amount.
Their claim that you pay interest on your currency is fraudulent. There is no evidence of contribution to anything of equal consideration from the Bank and without your signature, there is no business.
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Ryan
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by Ryan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:44 pm
It sounds like you are really querying the true value of currency to be honest. If you apply for credit in the credit agreements the Lenders state the interest rates, etc and you are agreeing to repay them - if you don't repay them you are then legally breaching the terms of said agreement (at least I would imagine that is what the Lenders would be saying)
Roux58
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by Roux58 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:15 pm
Ryan wrote:
It sounds like you are really querying the true value of currency to be honest. If you apply for credit in the credit agreements the Lenders state the interest rates, etc and you are agreeing to repay them - if you don't repay them you are then legally breaching the terms of said agreement (at least I would imagine that is what the Lenders would be saying)


Ask the lender to provide evidence of equal consideration to your promissory note which is a legal, equitable bond of monetary value.
The lender will refuse because they cannot provide the evidence.
Failure to provide evidence of equal consideration to your promissory note, null & voids the contract.
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Foggy
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by Foggy » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:18 pm
Roux58. This is a forum offering help and support to those in an IVA. Are you in an IVA ? Which I doubt as you owe nobody anything by your arguements. If not, what is your interest in this forum ?
Roux58
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by Roux58 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:24 pm
Ryan wrote:
It sounds like you are really querying the true value of currency to be honest. If you apply for credit in the credit agreements the Lenders state the interest rates, etc and you are agreeing to repay them - if you don't repay them you are then legally breaching the terms of said agreement (at least I would imagine that is what the Lenders would be saying)


Also what you have to consider is that the lender can only facilitate the available fiat currency. They are just converting your legal, equitable bond of monetary value into the local fiat currency. That is the only service they have provided. By claiming interest and failing to claim legal ownership of the so-called loan to you, they exposed their fraudulent activity.
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kallis3
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by kallis3 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:29 pm
I actually think you are talking rubbish and this is not a help to those who are in desperate circumstances and want advice.
Roux58
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by Roux58 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:25 pm
Foggy wrote:
Roux58. This is a forum offering help and support to those in an IVA. Are you in an IVA ? Which I doubt as you owe nobody anything by your arguements. If not, what is your interest in this forum ?


My interest is genuine compassion for those that suffer the current financial system of fraudulent fictitious loans and labour under the illusion that they owe a debt
I have just published a small ebook on Amazon called 'The Myth of Money.' I am passionate about this subject so the more we expose the fraudulent financial scams that are destroying this world, the better. So much for so-called foreign aid.
Here is a short extract.
(Another simile to the above but relatively recent and again sourced from a G8 meeting back in 2000 at Okinawa a quote from the then
President Obasanjo of Nigeria:-

'All that we borrowed up to 1985 or 1986 was about $5 billion. So far we have paid back about $16 billion. We're 'told' that we still owe about $28 billion because of foreign creditors' interest rates. If you ask me what the worst thing in the world is, I will say it is compound interest.'

At that time, the developing world was spending
thirteen dollars on debt repayment for every one dollar it received in foreign aid and grants.)
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Ryan
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by Ryan » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:33 pm
But if we bought it with a credit card we wouldn't really own it....? ;-)
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Foggy
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by Foggy » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:37 pm
I am locking this thread as it will just go around in circles.
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