Can I do anything about my ever lengthening IVA ?

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MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Thu Apr 12, 2007 3:57 pm
It's my pleasure Chris and do keep us informed of progress.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

chris_

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Post by chris_ » Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:30 am
After 2 weeks I have finally received some info from my IP. They have indeed increased the estimated fees another 2K in the last 10 months and I cannot find the money to pay the final amount required or indeed make up the shortfall of payments I am behind. I am really panicking now and really need some help and advice over exactly what I should do now.

I have outlined below the IP fees and the history of them.

Initial estimated fees in 2001 was £3,200 for 5 year IVA - that works out at £50/month. I have copies of the IP's invoices and they average out at about £200/month - some are lower some are higher. There is no pattern of say high invoices in first two years and then low since. The invoices are up and down like a yo yo, and I have some really high ones - for example in august last year fees were £800 and then in september they were £1,550!!!! - no explanations just invoices, and that is in year 6 of my IVA.

What is abundantly clear is that there was absolutely no way that my IVA was ever going to cost £50/month to run if the IP's invoices are legitimate, as I have only found 1 invoice to that amount in 4 years worth of invoices.

The estimated fee increases are outlined below.
2001 - £3200 initial
2002 - £7,000
2003 - £10,000
2004 - £12,000
2005 - Not informed of any increase
2006 - £14,000
Final 2007 - £16k approx
Remember these are estimated fees for running the whole IVA not year by year costs.
After 2003 I received a letter from the IP stating that the estimated fees had increased due to 'time taken dealing with government department queries and the subsequent agreement of their claims' - as pointed out earlier this had absolutely nothing to do with me as my tax affairs were straighforward (PAYE, Vat and income tax). However that does not account for the increase in charges from £10k to £16k since then.

The only increases I can see being justified are for extra letters sent to me if I missed a payment or was late with my annual statements - hardly the thousands of pounds charged.

Finally, I have 3 years worth of 'charges applied' in a table format showing me hours spent on my IVA. The last one is for 2005 and is highlighted below.
Admin - £8,472
Case Specific - £60
Creditors - £813
Investigation - £340
Realisation of assets - £286
Unclassified - £932
Total 10,900 (up to 2005)

The hourly rates I can deduce from this table is as follows -
Admin Staff - £30/hr
Manager - £65/hr
Senior Professional - £52/hr
Partner - £135/hr
(Based on 2005)


Please could you let me know what you think about the above, and what I should do next. I have not so far done anything other than request from my IP final settlement costs and invoices.

I apologise for the length of this reply but I could not see a shorter way of doing it.

Chris.
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:17 pm
Chris
Thanks for the info
Melanie is on holiday at the moment but I,m sure that she will able to comment on the details that you have provided on her return
regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson and site manager
(aka Neverending)

Please check out my blog: http://andydavie.blogs.iva.co.uk

View my profile here:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp
Andam Davies
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:35 am
Hi Chris

I personally think that those fees are a madness - but of course I only have a very brief snapshot of your case. Remind me which firm are you using?

I suggest that you write to your IP and request a very detailed explanation of their administration costs, which should just relate to routine reporting at the end of each year. They cannot possibly have spent £8.5k on administration, where the only additional thing they have highlighted is agreeing HMRC claims - note they have only spent £800 on creditors!!!

If you then do not get a satisfactory reply, I suggest referring the case to the Financial Ombudsman or your IP's own regulatory body, for an independent view. Do keep posting and let us know how you get on.


Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

l.h

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Post by l.h » Tue May 01, 2007 1:19 pm
Dear Chris

I have read all of your threads with jaw dropping amazement !

I too am having a similar crisis with my IP and their never ending fees. On a debt of £24k, I have already paid £27k with four months to completion and now they are requesting an additional £3k.

I have complete sympathy with what you are currently experiencing. It seems like a never ending process to get your life back on track when you are trying to do the honourable and decent thing. I too do not have any property or assets to protect and just 'jumped in feet first' with the IVA as I was stricken with panic. Thank goodness for these forums, I have learnt such a lot - Melanie's advice is excellent.

I will read with intrigue your ongoing situation and hope and pray that the nightmare ends for you as soon as possible !
 
 

chris_

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Post by chris_ » Wed May 02, 2007 11:41 am
Hi Melanie,

Thanks for the reply on saturday - sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but for some reason my email no longer alerts me to a reply being posted and so I thought you must still be on holiday. (Hope you had a nice holiday by the way.)

I will write to my IP again forthwith, (the IP is Armstong Watson) and demand a detailed explanation as suggested, but I have revealed all and everything with regards my IVA on this forum, and you picked up on the allocation of fees with regards administration and creditors as i did. What you maybe didn't pick up on was the fact that those figures only apply up to June 2005 - the fees have gone up another £5k since then - and I assume that MUST be administration because what else could there be in the final 2 years of an IVA ?

This would mean estimated admin charges of £12.5K over 6 years.

The only things I can see that could put the fees up above general admin are letters that the IP have sent to me when I have been late with payments or with my annual statement, but if I have had more than a dozen or so letters in 6 years I would be surprised.


Unless I am missing something, once the IVA is up and running and all claims settled, then the IP gets the money in (mostly by direct debit), pays the money out (To a bank, the banks credit card co, and the government - thats it) and prepares a report at the end of each year - the invoices I have received from my IP from June 2005 (when admin was already 8.5K) to Mar 2007 are as follows -

June 2005 - 200/Jly 150/Aug 250/oct 450/nov 200/jan 2006 - 100/feb 300/mar 500/june 2006 - 800/sept- 1,550/nov 325/Dec 250/jan 2007 - 100/march - 150.

A total of £5,325 in supervisors renumeration in the last 23 months alone.

Is there any way these sort of costs could be run up in the last two years in general admin, the odd letter and the annual report ?

(Remember the estimated fees for running the whole of this as a 5 year IVA at the outset was £3,200).


Also, an issue that concerns me greatly at this moment in time is that I am behind with my payments and the IVA has a modification that if I get behind that the IP should bankrupt me. - If I start rocking the boat and am behind with payments, I am frightend that the IP will bankrupt me- what do you think ?

Thanks again for your time, I really wish this forum was around 6 years ago !.
 
 

Andy2

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Post by Andy2 » Wed May 02, 2007 12:33 pm
Chris, many people on this forum will share my own despair at your situation. I was wondering, it is only right for you to ask your IP to explain/account for their fees. But are they then CHARGING you by the hour to do this ? If so they are charging you for providing a breakdown of their charges......I do hope this is not the case but have you asked them if they are doing this. I realise you don't want to "rock the boat" with your IP but you need to know whether you are racking up charges of £30 an hour by simply asking for these breakdowns. It would appear to me that your IP sees your case as a "cash cow" that it regularly milks.
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Wed May 02, 2007 12:41 pm
Get the IP's regulators involved at an early stage about these fees. You have been very badly treated here, and this needs an independent eye. In the meantime I suggest that you write to your IP detailing your concerns, and suggest that no more time costs be incurred until the matter can be fully investigated. If those fees are deemed to be incorrect, then you may find that you are not actually behind with your payments at all! There is no way they can have spent so much time on "Administration".

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

chris_

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Post by chris_ » Wed May 02, 2007 2:24 pm
Hi Andy2 and Melanie,

Andy2, your point about the IP charging me to give me an explanation on the fees is well made and is something that I have considered my self - that is partially why I have so far been reluctant to 'have a go' with lots of letters etc knowing that they would probably charge me for replying to them (probably for reading them as well).


Melanie,

I will do as you advise and and get in touch with the FSA and also write to my IP a long letter outlining the issues with regards the fees etc.

As I have already mentioned, my immediate concern is that the IP will bankrupt me for being behind with my payments while I sort this all out. Do you know how long the ombudsman would normally take to look at something like this ? and should I make any more payments while they do ? - I can make single payments at the moment, but I cannot make up the shortfall.

Once again thanks for all the advice, I finally no longer feel that the world has forgotten and abandoned me to some underworld hell of money grabbing, pen pushing, legally licenced thieves with bankruptcy the consequence of trying to do anything about it.

Chris.
 
 

gimmewine

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Post by gimmewine » Thu May 03, 2007 1:17 am
Chris, I wish you the best of luck with the Ombudsman and would be disgusted if you did not get back some of those fees. I am not a fully qualified accountant but used to do self assessments and books in spare time up until 6 years ago. 6 years ago I would have charged about £150 for books and 50 for a self assessment. That would have included dealing with queries resulting from the assessment. If I remember rightly, accountants were advertising this service at around 300 quid for a self assessment again including liaison with the Inland Revenue and Contributions agency. Bearing in mind that around 8k seems to be the figure floating around for IP charges now, where did the other 8k in fees come from? Daylight robbery it seems.
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Thu May 03, 2007 7:11 am
Chris

I feel that it is very unlikely that your IP will make you bankrupt whilst subject to an investigation, however you would be wise to point out your concern in this regard in your letter. Take the obmudsman's advice as to whether you ought to keep paying over monies whilst you are in dispute over the figures.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

chris_

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Post by chris_ » Thu May 03, 2007 9:19 am
Thank you everybody.

I will report back as soon as I have any info to share with you all.

I would just like to add this general comment, and that is without all your advice I would still be totally in the dark over what to do - there is nowhere to turn if you have the sort of issues I have had with regards my IVA, and this forum is a godsend.


Also, below are my feelings over the whole IVA experience I have had, and how it has affected my life. - I have not include this just to have a 'rant', but rather to let other people in the same situation know they are not alone (also, to make other people who THINK they are being badly treated realise it is actually not that bad when they see how I have been treated!!! - tongue in cheek comment)

The despair that hits you at times cannot be described to anyone who has not been in this kind of situation, and I feel that my decision to carry on my business after two companies went bankrupt on me at the same time has gone completely unapreciated by everyone involved. HMRC treated me like I had been one of the companies who had gone bust rather than a victim of such.
Then to find that my IP is in all probability ripping me off left right and centre, and that after nearly six years I still need to find another 6K to pay more IP fees - disheartening as a word does not even come close.

I had another company go bust on me last year, and they had not paid fully their tax bills for 3 years!! - how did they get away with that ? - They then stripped their company and are now operating under a wife's name. It seems to me that if you are honest and hardworking you are an easy target, and I genuinely feel that I have been treated like a criminal on probation.

I have worked very hard over this last 6 years, 60hrs+ a week in an ever more difficult trade (I am a professional design engineer) which has seen me go from employing 3 people back to just myself as the industry rapidly goes chinese ! - I should have had a house, nice car, holidays all the trimmings - but instead I have had this IVA leach taking everything I had, and when work was scarce or tax bills due I have still had to find the money for the IVA. I have nothing, nothing left at all - completely drained.
Can anyone imagine being in a position whereby you are working at 3 am in the morning trying to get work done for a customer, and instead of thinking 'that will make some profit' you are thinking 'that will go towards this month's IVA payment' or pay the tax bill I am behind with because I paid the IVA payment last month when I couldn't afford it! - Now imagine this for 6 YEARS +

As I said disheartening doesn't come close.

The only good thing over the last 6 years (and the most important) has been my family. I got married 4 years ago and my wife was not around when my IVA started, but has been totally supportive. When times were hard she used her savings to 'fill the gaps' and has even gone into debt herself when work went slack for a while. She now has nothing left either - everything we have had has gone during this last 6 years. We have a 23 month old son as well now who is just wonderful and a joy to behold, but this means my wife has not been working and so I am the only bread winner. - My wife has felt the impact of my IVA, no holidays, no new clothes, robbing Peter to pay Paul etc etc - what a woman - no complaints ever, she just gets on with it.

So, here we are 6 years on - totally broke, behind with my IVA, being ripped off, rented home, one income, highly trained experienced engineer, work getting more difficult to come by and make a profit on, unable to pack in and get another job (as it wouldn't pay enough), wife and child to support.

Well, at least the sun is shining.
 
 

Skippy

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Post by Skippy » Thu May 03, 2007 11:00 am
Oh Chris, your post has brought tears to my eyes. You have done so well to even keep your head above water, and you really put me to shame - my IVA lasted 4 months before it failed, mainly because the payments were too high, and as my partner is self employed he would only be able to help me out on the good months. I wish you all the luck in the world with your complaint - IP's like yours give the rest a bad name. One thing that came across from your post is the importance of having support from family. A lot of people ask if they need to tell their partner, but I think you have proved that if you have the support of a partner (I mean emotional rather than financial) it is a big help. Your wife sounds a lovely lady, and I hope that very soon you can enjoy your life together with your little boy.

Good luck, and please keep posting to let us know how you are getting on.

Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is the present - a gift to make the most of.

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scaredkez

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Post by scaredkez » Thu May 03, 2007 11:06 am
chris i agree with skippy, you have done your very best and wish you and your family good luck and hope you get sorted soon, i have complained about my IP and haven;t heard anything off the regulatory body since feb they did say the process is quite long.
good luck
kerri

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Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Thu May 03, 2007 11:18 am
Chris
Lets hope that you get a finish line to head for very soon.....then your life can only get better.
The time costs charging has,I believe,been replaced by set fees and about time.I had a similar experience as you regarding fees but yours have been worse than mine.
I really do hope that you make that finish line because you sure do deserve it
Regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson and site manager
(aka Neverending)

Please check out my blog: http://andydavie.blogs.iva.co.uk

View my profile here:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp
Andam Davies
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