Can somebody cofirm the OR's statement

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johnny.f

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Post by johnny.f » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:17 pm
Hi, can somebody please help? My partner has gone bankrupt and we were advised by different parties that my initial 17,500 deposit money would be safe and not included in the equity of the house. I have just received a letter rom the OR which states that as the property is held as 'joint tenants' the whole equity including my initial depsit is to be divided equally and 50% is to be paid to the OR. I have taken legal advise and was pointed to the case of Stack v Dowden House of Lords 2007. Can somebody cofirm the OR's statement or does the Stack v Dowden case mean that the 17,500 initial deposit is safe?
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Fri Oct 12, 2007 7:47 pm
Hi
I think that you will need to continue with the legal advice and instruct a solicitor to act for you.
My thoughts are that your initial deposit should be discounted before the equity is split.Can you prove that you put this money into the property ?
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johnny.f

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Post by johnny.f » Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:29 am
Morning Andy,

Thaks for responding. Yes, we have given bank statements which show the money going in and out of my own bank acc. We have also given copies of the solicitors letters which show the deposit value and that is was paid. So all the values do stackup and it is very visual to see that I paid the deposit of 17,500.00. We received the OR letter yesterday and was shocked to see that they are not taking ino account the deposit as we are 'joint tennants'. They state that if we were tennants-in-common the deposit would have been taken into account? I'm not sure what the difference is? This is the first time in our long process that we have come up against this and is a real shock. The OR says they want 13,500 from me to keep our house.
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:06 am
Hi
I'm afraid that I can't advise any further but one of our IPs will hopefully pick this thread up when they return from holiday and give you another view on it.
Please keep looking and posting
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Andy Davie
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Soulgrowth

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Post by Soulgrowth » Sat Oct 13, 2007 8:47 pm
Johnny ... as Andy says ... hang on until Melanie gets back from her well earned hols ... she's an absolute star!! Promise you'll hang around?

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johnny.f

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Post by johnny.f » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:47 pm
Thanks for that, i will hang on as long as possible to see what Melanie's thoughts are.
 
 

catullus

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Post by catullus » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:48 pm
As the junior IP and in Melanie's absence I'll attempt to explain.

The case the OR referred to dealt with a couple where one was trying to assert a different split of the property than 50:50. In the particular case the party was able to prove a 60:40 split but only because the couple had very unusually kept their finances completely split giving weight to the argument that they never had intended their financial arrangements to be shared equally.

The judgement made it clear that the presumption will almost always be that a couple will intend to have an equal financial relationship regardless of who paid for what.

Applying this to your case I think that the IP would need evidence that your finances were completely separate or that there is other evidence (such as a deed of trust) that shows that the intention was to share the assets on a different basis.

This issue does actually only affect people who own their properties as joint tenants rather than tenants in common and you might want to look back at the paperwork to establish why you purchased the property as joint tenants.

In these circumstances it does look as though you may have to buy some of your partners theoretical interest from the OR.
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:55 pm
Hi
Welcome back Catullus

Johnny.f
Catullus is a very experienced IP and you can rely on his reply
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Andy Davie
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catullus

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Post by catullus » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:43 pm
Thanks Andy

Clearly I made it back before Melanie, putting paid to the scurrilous rumours that were circulating before my departure!!
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:00 pm
Hi
Someone suggested that you and Melanie were the same person !! Good job that I know better.
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jasperyogi

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Post by jasperyogi » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:28 am
Hi Catullus,
Hope you had a great holiday .....but, I believe that you have posted on here before melanie just to try to convince us that you have not been away together, and not that meanie has just had one more day off than you!![;)] LOL!

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MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:35 pm
I have obviously missed something in my absence! Just to say that I completely agree with Catullus' analysis of the Stack case. People with differing amounts of investment to put into a property are unwise to buy as joint tenants, and I do wonder if the implications of this were explained to you by your conveyancing solicitor at the time? That said, I still feel that you have a strong cases, so long as you can prove that the monies were definately derived from your own assets and not shared with your partner.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

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Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:02 pm
Hi Melanie
Can you quickly explain the difference between joint tenants and tenants in common when buying a house.
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Andy Davie
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MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:15 pm
These issues relate to co-ownership of property, and if you buy a house jointly with someone else - a spouse, partner or friend then it is important to understand the difference between these terms.

If you are joint tenants then each of you jointly own the whole property (effectively in trust for each other and yourselves!). The consequence of this is that upon the death of one party, their interest in the property passes automatically to the survivor and it is therefore usual for married couples to buy a property in such manner - as most people don't bank on becoming insolvent at that time.

If the property is held as tenants in common, then each owner has a distinct share in the property - either half-each or a pre-determined share, based upon actual wishes or the amounts each party pays towards the acquisition, or any other way you decide to share the ownership. Each party owns their share of the property, and are only entitled to that share of the proceeds, and if they die then their share of the property forms part of the estate and does not automatically pass to the other owner(s).

Hope this helps - and this is where we could do with a resident lawyer as part of the panel!!!

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

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Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:22 pm
Hi
That's great info Melanie and something that I wasn't aware of
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Andy Davie
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