Cleardebt recently passed me to a third party who wanted to switch my energy and TV supplier.

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JdT62

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Post by JdT62 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:24 am
Cleardebt have recently telephoned me and passed me to a third party who wanted to switch my energy supplier and/or TV supplier with the object of saving me money.
I was told by Cleardebt that speaking to this third party would not cost me anything but may save me money.
Is this acceptable behavior from my IP? If I am saving money on energy/TV will I not then have more surplus, thus affecting my income and expenditure? Surely then I would need to increase my payments to the IVA.
 
 

Foggy

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Post by Foggy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 7:58 am
That is the nature of the IVA -- if you make savings on things like utilities they will be hoovered up -- usually 50% of them, and not usually until the next review ... so with careful timing, you could get a years savings and the 50% thereafter ... so not all doom and gloom.

Whether there is a referral fee involved is anybodies guess.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
 
 

plasticdaft

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Post by plasticdaft » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:00 am
Of course there will be a referral fee involved. Not sure iva firms should be taking actions like this.

Paul
Discharged today the 8th feb 2012. View is much brighter now.
Continuing to rebuild our credit worthiness.
 
 

Foggy

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Post by Foggy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:04 am
I agree Paul. I realise the IP's have to maximise income and expand into other streams, but this smacks on unprofessional.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
 
 

lifenoteasy

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Post by lifenoteasy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:19 am
Depending on how the call was worded that governs whether you said yes or no.

However if iva companies intend to use data for secondary purposes e.g. sales they need to be really careful and make sure their data protection and PECR compliance is in order.

This puts into the realms of the information commissioner who has been fining or taking people to court.

Simplest thing is state that you do not expect to receive sales calls of this nature in future.
IVA started March 2011, Completed March 2016 and certificate issued 11 days after final payment. It was not always easy but then some of the best decisions aren't.
 
 

lifenoteasy

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Post by lifenoteasy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:59 am
If you do the maths:

- There is the potential of the referral fee
- They also benefit from applying their 15-23% admin fee so if you realised £200 savings on bills they would get £30
- That means you might only benefit by £85 and the creditors the same with NO guarantee that those savings remain with the utility company

Bear in mind that a lot of utility companies also credit score so anything quoted will automatically be higher because they know directly you are linked to Cleardebt.

This is where they need to be careful - your IVA is in the public domain so if someone wants to look it up but they need to know where to go to.

If Cleardebt are not careful they could receive a complaint that they have released sensitive personal data.

Any company wanting to go down this route would be better off seeking the guidance of the Information Commissioner first or some really specialised legal guidance.
IVA started March 2011, Completed March 2016 and certificate issued 11 days after final payment. It was not always easy but then some of the best decisions aren't.
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:24 am
Hi

If you enjoy some of the saving then it may be worth doing
Clearly Cleardebt are looking to maximise all avenues of income

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Andam Davies
 
 

lifenoteasy

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Post by lifenoteasy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 9:47 am
Sorry to sound harsh but are you really saying or implying that there should not be any client confidentiality when we provide information?

I don't tell everyone that I am in an IVA and I don't expect an IP or the company they work for to justify release of information on the basis that it "maximises income".
IVA started March 2011, Completed March 2016 and certificate issued 11 days after final payment. It was not always easy but then some of the best decisions aren't.
 
 

Michael Peoples

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Post by Michael Peoples » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:14 am
I do not see a problem provided the client is contacted by the IP first and permission is granted for their name to be given out. If the IP is trying to save their clients money while improving the return to creditors I think this is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.

I am not sure about commissions or referral fees being paid as they would need to be into the IVA 'pot' anyway so the only benefit to the IP would be the 15% of increased contributions based on 50% of the savings made. This is unlikely to be a huge sum of money but across a large portfolio it may make a difference. Regardless, if the client is happy with the savings, the creditors get a higher dividend and the IP gets a bigger fee then personally I have no issue with what Cleardebt are doing.
Michael Peoples | McCambridge Duffy Insolvency Practitioners
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lifenoteasy

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Post by lifenoteasy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:42 am
So long as you can justify the legal basis you may be right - but "I do not see a problem" or "maximise income" may not swing it.

Bright House springs to mind on some of this.
IVA started March 2011, Completed March 2016 and certificate issued 11 days after final payment. It was not always easy but then some of the best decisions aren't.
 
 

Foggy

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Post by Foggy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:12 am
I can see the plus side from what is basically offering a service. However, only with the provisos Michael highlights: that there is prior permission for details to be passed on (sold?) and that any fee goes into the IVA pot (difficult to assess, as I imagine details are passed across in blocks).

Close on the heels of insurance companies and body repair shops selling details to claims companies, this is still walking on thin ice.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:17 am
Hi

Can an IP not earn from this type of referral Michael ?

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Andam Davies
 
 

lifenoteasy

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Post by lifenoteasy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:43 am
I overheard a conversation a couple of years back where a GP was saying that he was looking forward to the new changes in the NHS.

They were planning to buy a care home on the basis that they would be able to maximise income by getting all the residents to register with their Practice.

They had focussed so much on what could have been of benefit to them that they had not only forgot about the wider picture (in this case Human Rights Act, Monopolies and Mergers, contractual arrangements with who was paying the bill etc.) but the impression being made to others.
IVA started March 2011, Completed March 2016 and certificate issued 11 days after final payment. It was not always easy but then some of the best decisions aren't.
 
 

David Mond

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Post by David Mond » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:25 pm
I’m the CEO of ClearDebt and I’d like to clarify some points in response to the original query and address the points which have been made on this thread.

Firstly, I can confirm that ClearDebt are now in a position to offer people the opportunity to try to save money by reviewing their household bills. For the avoidance of doubt, these reviews are done over the telephone and nobody will be transferred through without their consent only ever when we have our customer's consent. ClearDebt do not receive any referral fee whatsoever for this - the whole point of such of these reviews is to ensure the longevity of each IVA. Any savings which are made will leave the debtor with extra money each month and will not be assessed until the next annual review.

At that point, it is quite possible that other things may have changed within the debtor’s I&E, so it does not necessarily always follow that the debtor’s contributions will increase at the next review.

Conversely, if a debtor experiences a drop in income or an increase in expenditure an income drop or spending rise which left their contributions borderline and possibly unaffordable, these potential savings could well prove to be the deciding factor which prevent the IVA from failing. This is particularly relevant given that ClearDebt, unlike some insolvency providers, will propose IVAs for those with much lower disposable incomes, sometimes as low as £70.

Of course, the possibility does exist that at the next review, there may be an increased disposable income and therefore thus an increase in contributions. Bearing in mind Contributions only rise by 50% of the increase to the disposable income. So, as Supervisor, I will only benefit by a very small amount in comparison to the benefit to both the customer and their creditors.

If, for example, a debtor made savings of £10 per month immediately after their first annual review, they would be better off by £10 per month for the next 12 months (£120 in total). Thereafter, their contributions would only increase by £5 per month, meaning that they are still £5 better off every month (assuming nothing else changed throughout the duration of their IVA, that is an additional 36 months of saving £5, i.e. £180). Therefore, In this example, the debtor would be £240 better off in total over the 4 years since their first annual review. On the other side of the coin, the increase to my Supervisor’s fee would equate to 15% of £5, i.e. 75p per month for 48 months, a total of £36 over 4 years. There would also be an additional £204 going into the pot, which is to the benefit of the creditors.

Now that I have clarified my reasons for offering this service and given numerical examples, I hope that it is now clear to everyone that my potential increased fees if a saving is made are negligible and the main beneficiaries by far are the debtor and their creditors. Obviously, nobody is obliged to make these savings, either by reviewing their spending themselves or with assistance, however I cannot understand why any debtor would not be happy to have more money in their pocket every month and I would be most disappointed to see any IVA fail that could otherwise have been salvaged.

Regards

David Mond
Regards, David Mond, Insolvency Practitioner for over 46 years. Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year 2012, Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year finalist 2013 & 2014 awarded by Insolvency & Rescue Magazine and 2015 finalist for Personal Insolvency Firm of the Year.
 
 

Foggy

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Post by Foggy » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:40 pm
Thank you, David, for clarifying this for us ( would that all companies were so helpful and forthcoming!).

In the light of what David has confirmed all appears good.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
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