Do you actually have debt written off?

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confusedchris

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Post by confusedchris » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:24 am
Melanie

The reason I ask is because I am currently paying Interest only so as to afford the IVA monthlys no allowance is being made in the expenditure (therefore clear for all to see) for any repayment vehicle
So should the fact that Repayments will reduce my disposable income be taken into account in year 4/5 when remortgaging or completing an IVA

Thanks

Chris
 
 

tracy.h

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Post by tracy.h » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:47 pm
In my opinion is it not best to sort the equity release out at the beginning of the iva,like give a figure you will be expected to pay in year 4 rather than theamount you will have to release 4 years into it.
I looked at my proposal of the iva i failed and it states that i would pay £500 per month and in year 4 i would have to pay another £30000 meaning of a debt of £104000 i would be paying back £60000,at least i had a ball park figure and new what i wwould be paying,obviously this is the proposal that i signed and excepted,it was only when the creditors added 65 modifications that i never agreed to it.
I realise i don't always get my point across,but i personaly would have been happy with that agreement,as i knew what i was going to have to pay i think its the uncertainty of not knowing if your property will have increased in value and that you would be able to afford to remortgage 4 years into an iva.
I hope you can understand the point i'm trying to make,as i said thats only my opinion.

Tracy
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:52 pm
Hi
There is no doubt that the fourth year equity release clause has been one of the most unexplained and miss understood parts of an IVA.We have had hundreds of posts over the years concering this clause.
I fully agree that when you look at the press adverts or tv adverts there is no mention of a possible equity release and my view on this is well known.
The 75% claim is not misleading as my own IVA was initially writing off 71%[no equity release] but with certain creditors now insisting on a 40p minimum return that figure should no longer be quoted.
This clause should not be added at the creditors meeting,it should be fully explained from the outset and YES this is down to the IVA provider to make sure that this happens.
Regards


Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp
Andam Davies
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:01 pm
Hi Tracy
I also agree with the property being dealt with at the start of the IVA so you know where you are and what to expect.I think that this proposl is going to be part of the new SIVA.
Regards


Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp
Andam Davies
 
 

tracy.h

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Post by tracy.h » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:11 pm
Thanks Andy
Glad you got what i was saying,and i think the siva will certanily be a way forward and clear up a lot of problems related to equity release.

Tracy
 
 

spenmotherhen

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Post by spenmotherhen » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:34 pm
I think thats my problem, Not sure what will happen at the 4 year mark. I like the idea of knowing exactly how much I need to pay and when.

I guess as IVA's are becoming more utilised these clauses will be made more easier to understand from the outset.

Thanks very much for all the advise and info.
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:58 pm
To Chris

I feel that you do have a good argument for claiming that you have paid high payments for a five year period, and should not be penalsed unduly into the future. Surely a fair way of viewing this is that the new mortgage payments should not be more than 60% of the client's disposable income, based upon a repayment mortgage due to end in line with the client's retirement age. I have a meeting with some of the main creditors on 8 Novemebt, and will raise it as an agenda point. Thank you for highlighting this issue.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
http://www.melaniegiles.com/ivaEnquiry.asp

See customer feedback at:
http://www.iva.com/iva_companies/IVA_Advice_Bureau.asp
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

confusedchris

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Post by confusedchris » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:37 pm
Thanks Melanie

If you could get some feedback that would be good

Chris
 
 

confusedchris

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Post by confusedchris » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:50 pm
Andy/Tracy

Yes dealing with the equity release at the outset makes logical sense

However there could be and should be written levels of acceptance from the outset which based on comments in this thread does not exist and it all very much depends on who you ask and when you ask it

Maybe something like:
Equity release: No more than 85% LTV, No more than 60% of current IVA monthly payments, Mortgage payments include Repayment mortgage, Mortgage to complete no later than current retirement age..now thats clear

What we have here is a mix of interpretations what we need is a scheme with a solid structure that applies to all only the amounts/figures should change.

Chris
 
 

catullus

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Post by catullus » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:19 pm
Spenmotherhen posted at the top of this thread that the 75% write off isn't true for homeowners, and reading this very long thread, this seems to be a misconception that may have taken root and so the purpose of this post is to explain the history of the equity release clause to help people understand.

Firstly there is no reason why, with the exception of certain creditors who have blanket minimum dividend requirements, creditors will not except a 75% write off of their debt PROVIDED THAT THEY BELIEVE IT IS THE BEST OFFER THE DEBTOR CAN MAKE. In other words,an equity release to secure a 75% write off is entirely possible depending on the circumstances of the IVA.That needs an experienced IP to decide what will be appropriate.

Secondly, it is the creditors who have driven the requirement for an equity release over the last 18 months and they have swung between wanting up front releases to back end releases during this period, leaving the IP a bit bemused as to what to offer. The back end release has currently gained favour mainly because many debtors are mortgaged up to the hilt at the start of the IVA and, in a rising property market the creditors have chosen to take a view that property values will increase and that the mortgage market will remain stable.

If either of these two conditions changes, expect creditors to revert to the up front version of equity release and, given market conditions, we may not be very far away from that.

Ask an IP his/her opinion and the cute ones will always favour up front. Two reasons for that. Firstly, as has been said, it gives the debtor a degree of certainty (subject to rising interest rates) but, FAR MORE IMPORTANTLY, the IP gets paid quicker!!

As to the wider debate about mis-selling, well I think that it has been thrashed to death. But I think that I would like to make one comment on this. Sure, over the telephone soothing word and the hard sell may be enticing and it may be tempting to say yes, but an IVA should never gets going without the debtor being provided with a volume of literature and documents to sign, in their own time, in their own home and with recommendations that they seek legal advice if in doubt.This is as true for the volume IVA providers as it is for the smaller practices because every single one has to have a signed proposal back from the client.

Just what does an IP have to do to ensure that the client understands?
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:49 pm
Catallus - In an attempt to answer your last question!!

I personally still meet approximately 50% of my own clients - and a face to face meeting is always offered and encouraged. For those clients who choose not to take time out to make the trip, a telephone interview is always conducted and these can often take longer than the face to face meetings. I am sure you do the same in your own practice.

I then issue clients with detailed notes of the meeting(s), as often there is more than one in the process of putting together an IVA, and these cover such important issues such as the decisions made in choosing an IVA over other options, equity release, 50% uplift provisionjs, timing of reviews, default provisions, risks from difficult creditors and anything else of note. I know that clients actually read these, as they often call to have things explained further. Whilst this is a requirement of SIP 3, I am alarmed to note that a lot of IPs still seem to be not issing meeting notes and getting clients to sign them.

Putting myself into the shoes of an IVA client, I can equate to three things which have happened to me recently, which are unusual to my normal sphere of operation, and in which I have little knowledge or experience:-

1 Taking out critical illness insurance
2 Concluding a shareholders agreement within my company
3 Dealing with my dog's mystery illness

For all three occurances, I needed to use a professional - financial advisor, lawyer and vet. For the first two, i tended to rely upon what I was being told/sold, but did take the documents away to read through thoroughly in my own time. The shareholders agreement took 3 trips to the solicitor before I understood some of the terms, but in the end was signed once things had been properly discussed and explained.

My little dog's illness, however, was by far the most worrying and important, as this affected us personally more than the other two. We had three differing opinions from the vet, and because of her age did not know whether to allow them to operate or just let her live our her days as peacefully as possible. Although this sounds daft now, the stress and worry was incredible - my hubby and I could not agree, the vets opinions differed, I tried to find every web-site I could to try and find my own answers, and in the end we made a decision partly based upon professional advice and partly based upon our gut feeling.

This story has a happy ending, as my little Yorkie is fighting fit after having a major operation - which incidentally discovered something fairly minor that none of the vets had suspected. Just glad that it all went OK.

I equate this experience to that of our own clients - and in order to ensure that our clients understand, all we can do is ask them and ensure that we give them as much information and advice as we can, bearing in mind the stressful circumstances they are operating under. Some clients will always believe what they choose to believe, or simply forget some of the things that we deem to be important.

I personally do not believe that IVA's are generally mis-sold - there may be some argument for this happening in the past. But there are definate misunderstandings, and as we know this as professionals I suspect that we are even more careful to highlight those issues which tend to have a habit of biting - such as equity release in the final year.

Gosh what a ramble, but really an attempt to put myself in clients shoes and understand that not everyone will understand everything at first.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
http://www.melaniegiles.com/ivaEnquiry.asp

See customer feedback at:
http://www.iva.com/iva_companies/IVA_Advice_Bureau.asp
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

catullus

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Post by catullus » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:01 am
Fair points Melanie, fair points. And I'm glad to hear that the little Yorkie is making a good recovery.

My bete-noire is pensions. whenever I see my advisor, my eyes glaze over with boredom and a lack of comprehension and then I say "Yes!"

But I bet my pensions advisor says in his office "Just what have I got to do to make Catullus understand!!"
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:25 am
I don't go near them. Pensions are just too hideous for words - and as for making a will - well that involves going to see another solicitor!

And do you also employ an accountant to do your accounts, even though you are an accountant as well!!! And who is always rushing up to the tax office at 10.30 at night with their tax return begging the security man to give you a stamped receipt??? Or am I talking about me??!!

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
http://www.melaniegiles.com/ivaEnquiry.asp

See customer feedback at:
http://www.iva.com/iva_companies/IVA_Advice_Bureau.asp
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

confusedchris

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Post by confusedchris » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:54 am
Catullus - What your Pension Advisor really says is "that's another £500 commission in my Bank...I hope the Pension works out but if not I won't worry and I still get to keep my £500"

Call me cynical but that's the reality and I truly believe because human nature works that way that some IP companies have the same attitude...it's like fishing..cast a big enough net and you'll catch something...especially using the right bait...I double dare you to prove me wrong

Melanie your point about relying on others whether it be a Vet or some whizz kid is valid...yes I'm sure we only listen to a percentage of what we're being told but that's human nature...but to defend my "I didn't realise" position the very fact that this forum firstly exists and secondly this thread has existed shows that more has to be done and I think my earlier post about clear from the outset Equity release instructions would go a long way certianly in my case.

Chris
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:07 pm
Agreed - and that is why IPs have recently got together in an attempt to clarify matters such as the equity release. This forum is so valid as it highlights things that even professionals sometimes miss - such as your point about interest only or repayment basis.

We may not always agree - but that is the beauty of the forum in that it generates discussion and makes us think about things outside the usual box. Long may this last, as we are all finding things to think about and put right!

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
http://www.melaniegiles.com/ivaEnquiry.asp

See customer feedback at:
http://www.iva.com/iva_companies/IVA_Advice_Bureau.asp
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
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