Full and final offer treated as additional assets?

[Exhasperated]

Appealing to the knowledgeable in here.
I put a F&F forward early November, long story short the meeting was adjourned 3 times and rejected for lack of votes as the creditors were never provided what they asked for.

After a lot of emails and calls they set up another meeting for March.
I looked at the variation pack they sent off and the deductions are strange:
1900 nominee fee
778 supervisor fee ( this is pro rata due to proposed early finish/ full fee should be £1750)
300 variation meeting
All fine up to this point, then I look at the percentage of additional assets and they took £630.
I paid £650 bonus in, so as far as I know the deduction should be 15% and the rest available to creditors.
I called to confirm and I was told that they take 15% of the full and final offer payment because this is additional assets.
When pressed, they could not show me where this was written, just kept saying I don’t understand.
But I think I understand correctly that a F&F offer is neither an inheritance,windfall or additional asset. It is a payment in place of the remaining monthly contributions.
They then tried to say it is in the T&c’s that the supervisor can request a fee for variations meetings, to which I replied that is not disputed and it is already subtracted and listed as £300 variation fee.
In the end, he had no clue so he said he will pass it to my IP.
On top of that ,they somehow added a duplicated debt, and refuse to remove it until they get confirmation from the creditor. No claim was submitted for it as it doesn’t exist, and I have no idea where they magic it from.
I am trying to sort this out so that it is finally correct for the creditors but I get no help from anyone I speak to.
Just to clarify, in the first proposal they charged the full £1750 fees for supervisor but only £89 for additional assets. I have the feeling that since they are charging the sup fees pro rata now, they are trying to make up the shortfall to themselves by taking 15% of the F&at offer and trying to make it pass for an additional asset, even if it is not.
Considering the errors and the delays already caused, with the impossibility of getting a straight answer, can someone confirm that a F&F is not an additional asset?
If you have anything written I can refer to it would help.
Thank you

[Foggy]

As I see it, they are correct in taking 15% of the F&F lump sum in lieu of the 15% of ongoing payments they would have had if the IVA was left to run its course.
The usual fee structure these days is that the IP gets the Nominees fees, disbursements and, as Supervisors fees, 15% of the realisations --- this is whatever is paid into the arrangement, be it regular monthly payments, extra assets or a settlement lump sum.
A F&F is not an additional asset, but it is a realisation.

[Exhasperated]

So supervisors fees are deducted twice?
I really don’t understand it, the supervisors fees have already been deducted as an entry on its own, and pro rata as they only had to actually supervise the arrangement for as long as it lasts.

[Foggy]

Check your Chairman's Report - that should detail the charging rates.

The £1750 quoted is probably the fee due on the arrangement going to term and assuming no extra payments ... not based on time run, but on money paid in. The £778 already deducted based on 15% of the monies you have paid in to date.

Without sight of all the paperwork these are only guesses, of course. How much have you actually paid in so far ?

[Exhasperated]

3853 then £4200 F&F. Also another £665 bonus in the meantime, which is not accounted for on paperwork yet.
10.3 The Supervisor will charge on the sole basis of a fixed fee of £1,750.00 (this is the Supervisor’s Fee). The Supervisor’s Fee will be charged across the life of my arrangement on a monthly basis and collected from realisations under the arrangement, subject to the priority of the Nominee’s Fee and the amount to be set aside for the payment of dividends to creditors as described in Section 11.

10.7 In addition to the Nominee’s Fee and the Supervisor’s Fee, the Supervisor may charge an additional fee of 15% on any asset realisations made in addition to the monthly contributions as defined in Section 7 of this Proposal. This includes, for example, compensation for mis-sold PPI or other legal claim realisations, equity realisations (including by way of additional monthly contributions), windfall, inheritance, overtime or other additional income and any increase in the amount of my monthly contributions from income or such other additional realisations that may be made. Such additional fees and any associated costs of realisation will be paid from the gross amount realised. This additional cost is to contribute to the statutory work to be undertaken and to cover the work required in realising and distributing the additional assets, which will have a direct financial benefit for the creditors.

Excluding any additional fees payable in accordance with paragraph 10.7 above, the total costs and expenses of the arrangement are therefore fixed and capped at £3,650.

This is what I have, I find it confusing.
It might be the case of checking with IP if a full and final is a realisation I guess. They do keep it vague and no mention of full and finals.

[Foggy]

OK --- the way I read this .... the £1750 supervisors fee is fixed and payable on a monthly basis, so, a few pence under £30 per month.

Has your IVA been running for just over 2 years (26 months) ? If so, that will be where the £778 comes from. And the 15% of the lump sum makes up for the monthly £30's 'lost' by early completion by F&F.

Technically the lump sum is being made in addition to the monthly payments, as the effect of a F&F is to cancel further monthly payments to end the arrangement early. So under the terms outlined in 10.7, they are acting correctly.

I should mention that these sums come out of the lump sum amount as offered. You do not have to pay this on top.

[Exhasperated]

Thank you Foggy.
It has been a drama from start to finish , so I have to doubt everything they say.
If this is practice it is not an issue, it is just that in November when they sent the first pack, they only showed deductions for my bonus, now only for the full and final but nothing from the bonus.
Quite honestly, as long as they don’t leave the creditors hanging for a month again , when they have the requested documents already, all is good.
I look forward to be out of arbitrary increases each review, and hopefully March is my month, maybe.
They’ll have to amend it again at this point as I have paid another bonus in the meantime,3 months after asking for a F&F and still one month away from a meeting.
Give me strength

[luluj]

I agree with foggy in that the calculation us correct. As frustrated as you are, go with it and hopefully in matter of weeks you will be debt free and released from your iva.

[Exhasperated]

Just a quick update.
All accepted on 3/3/22, all creditors voted in favour of full and final but votes against the £300 for the variation fee.
Considering it took over three months from the offer, I couldn’t be happier right now.
They did admit to mistakes across the board on previous paperwork, and the lack of communication across the board was infuriating.
This goes from annual reviews,to calculating bonuses payments, I had to chase them for everything, while being harassed as if I did not provide what they asked for within 24 hours every time, and they consistently lost it.
Very glad to see the back of it, and hoping that the closure will be as quick and smooth as the others seen on here, it seems that Creditfix is pretty efficient on that front, there is no property or other assets either,so fingers crossed.
Thank you everyone

[Foggy]

Excellent news -- well done !

Yes, CF do appear to be pretty much on the ball with completions, so, hopefully, this will not take too long.

[luluj]

So pleased it was approved for you ..onwards and upwards now!

[Exhasperated]

I thought I would give a final update if it can help anyone:
Final payment made on 4/3/22 and I have received the completion certificate on 14/7.
Insolvency register received the completion on 18/7 and 2 out 3 credit reference agencies already updated the records to show the IVA is completed.
I know it will stay there for 6 years in total ( give a month maybe for the record to actually update?) but at least now I can start getting the green ticks lined up so as not to have a clean but empty record when it does drop off.
On an extra plus side, I just got a job in the legal sector, despite the IVA being on file still, as it is completed, which was a big reason for me to make the F&F in the first place.

The completion certificate was indeed an underwhelming looking piece of paper, but I’ve never been so happy to see mail in my life
Thank you all for your help and best of luck to everyone .

[Breezy]

Well done on the completion and congratulations on the new role

Yes, that certificate IS somewhat underwhelming, considering what it represents. However, you are unlikely to want to frame it and hang it in the loo

Onward and upward.

BTW, your credit record, as seen by potential lenders, updates pretty much overnight at the 6th anniversary and can be viewed as such on your statutory report, direct from each agency. It can take up to 56 days to reach one of those sanitised reports, such as you get on ClearScore or CreditKarma (although I believe they now update more regularly these days, so might take up to a couple of weeks).