IPs getting the same reputation as estate agents

[Mr Loadsofbills]

It seems that Insolvency Practioners have been getting a bad name.

From my own experience I find that they seem to belong to two camps, R3 and non-R3.

R3, correct me if I've misinterpreted facts, was setup by the Banks for the creditors to prevent the government from bringing in regulation.

Non-R3, in my opinion, are just a bunch of vultures who ask for money up front knowing full well that the debtors chances of getting a realistic iva are about as odds on favorite of observing the extinct DODO bird.


Creditors know that the reason that people want an IVA is because debtors want to hold onto their assets. (ie House)
Creditors play on this and unfortunately debtors fall into the trap on taking ivas in which they later realise are going to lead them into a bankruptcy.

I also find that IPs tend to be economical with the truth as regards charging orders, remortgaging at the end of the IVA, and general advice on handling creditors.

Mind you not all IPs are like this, but it can be difficult finding a reputable insolvency practioner. Very similar as to finding a reputable estate agent. And you know how difficult that is.

My question is:

Who does the consumer complain to? And if debtors wish to petition Parliament who should they write to?

It's about time that certain Insolvency firms were drummed out of the profession to prevent them preying on Debtors who have hit hard times.



My sig.

Eat the debt. My raison d'etre is to put TIX 'the isolvency exchange' out of business by informing anyone who will listen to take a bankruptcy over an unrealistic IVA proposal.

[MelanieGiles]

Ouch - that one hurt, and do remember there are some good estate agents out there as well!

I am saddened to read comments like this. The route to becoming an insolvency practitioner is not easy - I have posted many points on this early and will not repeat the steps we have to take to achieve qualification. Notwithstanding this, it is quite frankly very annoying to read some of the posts on this forum, where standards appear to have not been maintained, and if you are a victim of a lesser than adequate service, then you must take steps to raise the issue with your IP and possibly make a formal complaint.

R3 is a professional body set up and run by the insolvency profession and regulators. It has nothing to do with bankers! It is not obligatory for an IP to become a member of R3, but most of us are. I think the main problem here is that not everyone who calls themself an insolvency expert or debt management professional is necessary an insolvency practitioner - so do ask for proof of qualification if you are in doubt. And there are some very good debt management companies out there as well, some of which actually post on this forum.

If you do have a genuine issue to complain about, your first route is to the IP's own professional body - but please do give the IP the opportunity to resolve the issue with you first. I find face to face meetings absolutely essential in dispute resolution, but I rarely encounter complaints in my practice - and if we do receive them they are dealt with as an utmost priority and swiftly. If you want to go as far as lobbying Parliament - then you will need to get the support of your local MP, and will need to have a very good case to persuade them to fill out even more paperwork!

I agree that there are some bad apples in the pile, and these should be given the opportunity to get their act together or ship out. If the regulatory bodies received more complaints, then maybe this would happen - but again complaints must be propertly substantiated before being submitted.

Please don't tar us all with the same brush. The majority of insolvency practitioners are hardworking individuals who have a pride in the quality of our advice and have the interests of both creditors and debtors in mind.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.
View my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk

[Mr Loadsofbills]

You know of a reputable estate agent? Has the pope canonized that individual yet?

As regards, IP qualifications:

What minimum qualification should the IP or his/her case manager be holding? Should they be at least an ACCA member?

BTW I did mention that not all IPs were of the type I described. However, there does seem to be a large number of them that seem to be from the Arthur Daley school of insolvency practice.

Also from my own experience and from reading the posts on this forum it seems that Debtors have been severely burnt by these individuals and it's tarring the reputable individuals, such as yourself.

It's unfortunate that the bad apples set the tone of the industry. Only proper regulation will resolve these issues.

Look how long it took for the estate agency regulation to kick in. I just hope that this industry doesn't take as long and that common sense prevails.



My sig.

Eat the debt. My raison d'etre is to put TIX 'the isolvency exchange' out of business by informing anyone who will listen to take a bankruptcy over an unrealistic IVA proposal.

[Skippy]

Can I chime in here?

There are sharks in every field of business, even the electronics industry that I work in. Unfortunately they give the other, reputable firms a bad name.

There are plenty of reputable IP's out there - if in doubt go with one of the ones on this forum.

I've also got to say that the estate agent who sold us our flat was excellent - they even refunded some fees that were overpaid!

Three down, fifty seven to go until freedom!

[neverending]

Strong regulation IS needed,obtaining a good IP is a bit of a lottery at present and recent press has shown that the Industry is starting to come more into the spotlight.Creditors are wising upto the hard selling of IVAs and are starting to raise their acceptance criterea.
Melanie, i am sure that people reading this forum can see that you are without doubt a superb and fair IP but be in no doubt that from the "user" perspective the IVA experience is a mine field and needs safe guards to protect the vulnerable end user.
There are extensive rules and regulations covering the mortgage industry and these should be similar in the insolvency field.

[MelanieGiles]

I agree with that Neverending - and you know from where I sit the regulatory system is already in place, but is obviously not capturing those who are providing a lesser than acceptable service.

Our regulators (apart from fairly detailed routine inspection visits carried out every three years or so) will only step in if they are aware of malpractice, and this can only be done is specific complaints are made - which are actually quite rare in IVA cases - probably because the average client does not really know how to go about making a complaint. Don't quite know where this gets us, but clearly there is work to be done.

Undoubtedly, the sales tactics of some of my fellow professionals may be affecting how we are perceived in the marketplace, but the tactics of the banks to increase contribution levels to the stage where an IVA becomes unworkable just beggar belief. Do you know that statistically, only 3% of people who have IVA's rejected actually go bankrupt! This leaves the subtantial majority as prey for the ongoing collection activities of banks - which will lead to a growth in the extremely unregulated debt management marketplace, to the detriment of the government backed alternative procedure to bankruptcy - yes the IVA!

About time the DTI got its act together and liaised with banks and other stakeholders with regard to lending criteria and recovery processes. This has already started to happen, but is a slow process. Or maybe we should all retrain as debt management specialists - and there are no formal qualifications required for that!!!

Mr Loadsabills - you do not necessarily have to have a formal accountancy qualification before taking the insolvency exams, but this is favourable. There are entrance exams to also be taken, and a minimum of professional hours worked in insolvency as a further requirement but sadly (in my opinion) it appears that even these requirements are to be relaxed - with specialist insolvency licences to be granted for IVA's only to experienced individuals who have worked in the industry but are not required to take examinations.

Maybe some of the regulators ought to start reading this forum?

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.
View my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk

[freelili]

Hi

I just wanted to say couldnt something be done at a grass roots level?

Everyone has their own experience but I just saw an advert on TV and typed IVA and did a search, there was an online message where you just had to give details of your debt and some personal details including a telephone number. I was then contacted immediately by phone. They promised to send me an e-mail which i didnt receive so I then tried another company and went with them. I had never heard of IVA's and just wanted to get out of debt. The first company, synergi then phoned a few days later saying that they had miss typed my e-mail address, (thank the Lord) and I didnt use them. Then I found this forum again (thank the Lord). Not everyone uses the internet and I just think that if more people understood what can and does happen, there would be a certain amount of 'people power' self regulation. Consumer spending is always in the news as is the country's credit card debt, but virtually nothing apart from company adverts about individuals doing anything about it. I have to admit to not knowing very much but it seems there is potential for a great deal of !suffering behind closed doors! and for the average person like myself, not knowing ones rights concerning agressive creditors is increasing this, plus the stigma of being in debt. Insolvency doesnt just happen but if one is trying to face up to it they deserve to be treated fairly. If no-one actually knows they are paying for an unrealistic service then very few complaints are going to be recieved, and the 'bad' companies are going to continue. In short joe public needs to be educated.

LILY

[Skippy]

That's an excellent post Lily. I didn't know anything about IVAs, I just typed 'debt problems' into Google. It seems strange that all the adverts for IVA companies are on during the day, when the majority of people who would qualify for an IVA are at work.

Help should be more readily available for people in debt. While the banks are throwing money at people more and more people are going to get in debt.

This forum has been a big help to me - I've found out more info on here than I have anywhere else. I wish I'd found it before I applied for my IVA. Yes, mine has turned out ok (touch wood), but a lot of the information here would have been useful (and saved a lot of worry) before I started.

Three down, fifty seven to go until freedom!

[freelili]

Thank you Skippy

I feel that the debt problem will exist until the lenders stop making it so easy. We live by what we can afford to pay, dont we? Someone able to earn more usually owes more. Anything can happen though like ill-health or a change of job etc.

What I think is that when things get out of control and you realise it all, its a dark, black hopeless place to be, therefore you are vunerable by being ashamed, hounded and afraid of the 'unknown'. If educaiton in the Joe public department were possible, it could save endless hours of stress and hoplessness to many and may actually save lives. I know from research with the samaritans the cost of debt in terms of marriages, children and lives.

LILY

[neverending]

Melanie
Quote "our regulators (apart from fairly detailed routine inspection visits carried out every three years or so) will only step in if they are aware of malpractice, and this can only be done is specific complaints are made - which are actually quite rare in IVA cases - probably because the average client does not really know how to go about making a complaint. Don't quite know where this gets us, but clearly there is work to be done."

For me ,and I would guess most people, there is a reluctance to complain or even to enter into a discussion with your IP because of the fear of racking up costs and losing any working relationship with them.Also most peoples knowledge of the IVA workings are extremely limited.
Surely a way forward would be to cap fees,very similar to estate agents i;e some IVAs will be smooth and very cost effective and hence profitable for the IP whilst others will be complicated,drawn out and less profitable.Swings and roundabouts but at least Joe Public will know exactly how much the IVA will cost and that it cannort increase.
To give you an example...............in the first few months of my IVA I had some tax credit money paid into an old bank account that formed part of my IVA.The amount was less than £200 and I wrote to my IP who in turn wrote to the bank.This carried on for many weeks backwards and forwards between my IP and the bank.Finally my IP stated that she could no longer spend any more time on the matter as it was having a detramental affect on my creditors.This was the first that I realised that my IP was charging fees for chasing this money.I finally contacted the banking ombudsman and the money was refunded almost imedietley.However I have calculated that my IPs intervention increased their fees by about a £1000..............yes true.
This has made me wary of entering into lengthy corrospodence with my IP even though I have felt that they have been negligent regarding another matter and has also stopped me from complaining about them.
This is the reason that I post on this site,I have a strong desire to see the IVA industry better regulated and fairer to the average debtor who is at their most vulnerable when considering an IVA.
Some cases on this forum have shown that people will more than likely go with the first company that offers a sympathetic ear.

Heres my wish list
1] IVAs processed and proposed with no upfront fees at all.[a nominal fee upfront for guaranteed timescales regarding creditors meeting dates]
2] Capped IP fees[unless there is a major change to the original proposal]
3] Creditors to have no minimum dividend level other than 25%
4] A single Industry regulator with a fair practice charter

Heres hoping

[thebear29uk]

Hi everybody

I work Saturdays which means I have a day off in the week. On every satellite channel the majority of adverts are for consolidation loans and secured loans. For anyone who has seen the advert for Picture Loans would you really have your wife videoing you whilst you chatted about football and the weather to the advisor on the other end of the phone? Any time I applied for credit I was a bag of nerves waiting to see if it was approved. I certainly wasnt making idle chit chat with the other person.
Like most of you the first I knew of IVA's was an advert by debt free direct. I had no idea what was involved so also did a Google search. Through the BBC website I found the National Debtline and they were excellent and sent me an information pack. But I was still none the wiser about which company to approach. I had all but decided to call debt free direct when I had the good sense to search for IVA forums. This site has been invaluable. If nothing else it is a cheap evening in as I tend to read every topic and thread which can take up most of my night. LOL. But seriously it has helped me avoid the pitfalls and those claiming to have our best interests at heart but really only lining their own pockets.
Because of this site I chose Thomas Charles and from the moment I contacted them a weight was lifted from me. They were excellent and because they offer a £500 payment if the IVA is rejected you know they are going to be honest and realistic about your chances of success. They also deal with lots of different IP's and can pick one with particular experience to your circumstances.
Like probably everybody on here I shouldered the burden of my debts alone because its such a personal thing and you feel shame. But through this forum you are able to share your situation with people who understand. I wish nobody posted here but only because none of us were in debt. As it is this is my club where I can talk to others and not feel quite so bad about myself.

[neverending]

Had to LOL at your bit about picture loans.........my wife and myself say the same thing whenever we watch it.
This forum has grown from anout 100 members a year ago to nearly 700 and since Xmas it has been extremely busy.
That deal from Thomas Charles seems amazing......you have done well Bear........good luck