Is there miss selling of IVAs? Ch 4 documentary

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Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:12 pm
Hi JPJ
We will have to agree to disagree on this one,but James has summed it up well in the fact that regardless of fees you will pay the same into an IVA.
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james.c

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Post by james.c » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:58 pm
This subject annoys me, I firmly believe that no one is mis sold an IVA.

I contacted Thomas Charles and they spent 2 hours on the phone going over everything and was very good in what they do.

The reason I dont think they are mis sold is becuase at the end of the day,i am doing something to sort me debt out, but most important thing is, that when the time comes I can still get a mortgage in an IVA were as i can not under bankcruptcy.

How ever what i will say is their is some points that i did not fully understand about an IVA - BUT I WANT TO POINT OUT THAT THIS IS NO FAULT OF ANY IP,S

1 - Annual review - I understood it as the annual review was their only if you wanted to lower your payments, i did not fully understand that payments could go up due to pay rise etc, i thought when the IVA was accepted that the amount you agreed to pay at the time would stay the same.

2 - I remmber i had to sign a form stating that i had to sign to say that bankcruptcy had been explained as an option - but i dont remmber discussing this in detail with ip.

3 - Also when their was a creditors meeting i got a copy of the paper work which showed my creditors how much they would get back to the pound in an IVA but showed that in brabkcruptcy that it would be zero, which i have since found out through this site that this is not true because under bankcruptcy you still have to pay money for up to three years,

But the point i want to make is that despite my understandings it was not the IP's fault and not a mis selling.

I belive that me not understanding everything, was been stressed at the time and not reading everything correctly and overall the IVA is the best thing that happenend.

Their is a big difference between mis selling and mis understanding.

The IVA is good and the majority in the industry are doing everything right, my only thing is they should allow a bit of spare money, but at the end of the day its helping us get out of debt


no matter how bad money gets, theirs stll alot more important things in life
 
 

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Post by MelanieGiles » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:32 pm
James

Even if you pay monies for three years in a bankruptcy, it is still unlikely that this would provide any return for creditors - given that the costs of bankruptcy are actually quite high and the monies you pay over will likely be entirely absorbed by the costs of collection.



Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

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james.c

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Post by james.c » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:35 pm
i am not disagreeing with you, i have heard about that company "s", but when i see titiles like mis selling iva,s it makes the industry look bad when its only the minority

Hi Melaine - Thank you for the infornation, i have learnt something new today

no matter how bad money gets, theirs stll alot more important things in life
 
 

james.c

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Post by james.c » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:49 pm
i am not disagreeing with you, i have heard about that company "s", but when i see titiles like mis selling iva,s it makes the industry look bad when its only the minority

Hi Melaine - Thank you for the infornation, i have learnt something new today

no matter how bad money gets, theirs stll alot more important things in life
 
 

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Post by admin » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:54 pm
The only major miss selling complaint we have come across is from scaredkez - see her blog:
http://scaredkez.blogs.iva.co.uk/
She used synergy (company s).

We have had a fair few complaints about lack of customer service and difficulty in getting hold of IPs. Also complaints about the IVA not being explained properly. There have been a number of accusations that the IVA was not properly put together properly. However we have not had any other complaints of miss selling. Also no one has responded to this thread to say that they were miss sold. Perhaps the IVA industry is not so much guilty of miss selling - more of not explaining the service well enough.

Please can anyone who feels that they were miss sold an IVA post on this thread?
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Post by scaredkez » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:45 pm
oooh i am popular, i think reading this someone correct me if i am wrong, the gripe is with most people who's iva fails, feel they have been mis sold when they have made payments, and the only person/persons who get paid first is the ip.

hold on now i am not having a go, and this is where the misconception comes in, the ip has done work, so they are the first to be paid, the debtor then says hold on a minute i paid that in good faith thinking it was going to my creditors, but in reality with an iva and it is stipulated in the proposal that the first lot of monies go to the nominee/ supervisor fees,on the other hand those who are also angry are the ones who have been pushed into an iva to suit creditors wishes to the min in the £ regardless of what you have to live on, this in its self is where the trouble starts,

people who are desperate are pushed in a corner to accept knowing they really cannot afford the requests and the ip has also cut them to the bone already, they accept as they feel they have no alternative, BR is scary,this is exactly what happened to me, in my case i was told to pay up front until acceptance,to show i was making the effort basically and could manage, in my case there was no winner but the ip, if it was accepted or not, they had been paid regardless,that's why they took 5 months,

but had not put that across to me, as most companies do as a no win no fee basically, i never said it was mis sold but after joining the forum i realised they had left me no option but to go for an iva, and made BR sound awful, my argument is, they should have had both me and hubby there to explain fully what an iva is, instead of frightening me and telling me i had no other options other than BR if i didn't go down the iva route, i asked many questions along the way and was told we will deal with it everything is ok,

my argument is i sought professional help, i thought i was getting professional help and paid thinking my money was going to my creds to show i was making a commitment,there are many rogue companies out there but there are also many good ones, it takes the bad ones to highlight grievances which puts the thousands of iva's that have been accepted and finished in the closet,

i would have loved to have had my iva accepted on the true grounds of the i+e that was acceptable for me to live on, instead of figures being jigged to suit the ip who knew what would be and not be accepted, i am not the only one who had a grievance with this company, so i know it was not just me,

i spoke to melanie after the rejection and she was honest with me and said BR was the only option, with my income, she didn't string me along and say pay this and that, and that's what synergie should have done in the beginning when i asked if BH and NR would accept and they said we have had no problems with either, i learnt my lesson well, i hope the iva film from CH4 reflects well on both sides, synergi took my money knowing full well i would never have got an acceptance,

i know that now, and i have had to move on, that's why i still post here if i can stop anyone going down the route i did, even if it is just one person then i will be happy, i would rather lead them to someone who is upfront and honest as to what is the best route for them to take, ok i may be on a mission, but hopefully it is the right one to help those who are truly in need of help.
kerri


ps never ever got my chairmans report either, put a complaint in told not to say or write anything from regulatory body and never heard anything since.
Please view my blog at: http://scaredkez.blogs.iva.co.uk/
Last edited by scaredkez on Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by MelanieGiles » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:20 pm
Good post Kerri - and you ought to chase that complaint up. After all the regulators will never know about these issues unless they are drawn to their attention.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
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Post by mikebdomain » Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:47 am
Excellent post Kerrie, once you had put your complaint in writing to the provider they had up to eight weeks to reply with their final response. If they fail to respond or if you are unsatisfied with their response you should take the matter up with the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS). You will need to refer your dispute to FOS within six months of the date of the “final response” letter.

For more information regarding the complaint procedure see:

http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/p ... eaflet.htm


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thebear29uk

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Post by thebear29uk » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:41 pm
I think its difficult to differentiate between mis selling and being economical with the facts. The majority of people posting here with a gripe about their IVA tend to fall into 3 main catergories:

1) They were persuaded to adjust their I/E to make the proposal look better without any consideration for how this would affect them for the next 60 months. Spenmotherhen's post about her friend and family visiting demonstrates the hardships many face each month, particularly when unexpected expenditure is necessary.
This largely occurs due to them never having actually spoken to their IP. Melanie advises a face-to-face and, as one of her clients, I met her to discuss my case. My I/E had originally been discussed with a debt advisor from Thomas Charles but Melanie adjusted it to allow for contingencies and more leniency with housekeeping etc. As she pointed out, "you are going to want to go out for a beer with the lads during the next 5 years". Obviously not every night but paring your expenditure down to the bare minimum is a recipe for failure.

2) Lack of knowledge about such things as windfalls, bonus/overtime and equity release. We sign the Proposal and return it to the IP so we should fully understand what is in it. Maybe not all proposals are as well put together as Melanie's are but mine quite clearly addressed windfalls. As mine is a one year F/F bonus/overtime didn't feature but I'm certain it would have been clearly explained in the proposal if I was doing a 5 year IVA.
Numerous people come on here asking about form RX1 and why they are being asked to sign it. Others are asking if they can sell their house and others have no idea that they will have to remortgage in year 4. The main reasons for doing an IVA are either job related, the debtor wants to keep their house or a good old-fashioned sense of duty to pay back as much as possible. In order to keep the house the debtor agrees to an equity release in year 4 which could mean they are paying a higher mortgage repayment for the rest of its term. This might be another 20 years. So an IVA could mean you are paying it back for much longer than the 5 years. If you know this and are happy to go ahead with the IVA all well and good but there have been posts not too long ago where people didn't know this.

3)Desperation. People will agree to anything just to release the pressure on them from the creditors. "Okay I'll take another £50 off the £450 I put down as housekeeping for my family of 4 if it means I won't keep getting these threatening phone calls and letters". I know soap operas are not real life but last night's Eastenders showed Peggy Mitchell about to sign her pub lease away without it being properly explained. Such was her desperation to get a deal she glossed over the small print.

Finally I would say that there have been cases highlighted on here where possibly people have been mis-sold an IVA. People with approx £15k of debt where the creditors would have got a higher return in DMP without the IP fees yet who is to blame here if the creditors vote yes? Certainly the case of Chris (I think) who who was on a time/costs scheme and paid £65k of which the IP took £22k for an original debt of £52k to 3 creditors would make interesting viewing if the IP could be confronted and asked to justify his costs. Although he would probably bill his time talking to the reporter to Chris as well.

Regards

Dave
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Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Tue Oct 23, 2007 10:02 pm
Hi Dave
Good observations
miss selling or a misunderstanding ?
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Andy Davie
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Post by mikebdomain » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:53 am
With mortgage applications we have to ensure advice and paperwork is ‘clear, fair and not misleading’ and ensure that the process of advice to completion of the product is carried out in such a way, so as to be ‘Treating Customers Fairly’ (TCF).

The ‘clear, fair and not misleading’ is taken care of, in the main by standardised industry accepted, paperwork being issued to the client (this can run into 40+ pages).

As a company we ensure the paperwork is understood by the client by posting, or emailing the paperwork to the applicant, then after a period sufficient for the applicant to read and digest the information sent to them, we send a customer services consultant to the applicants home. The consultant sits down with the applicant and goes through the paperwork with them in detail. Only when the consultant feels that the applicant understands the commitment, benefits and pitfalls does he/she ask the applicant to sign. The consultant is not on a commission, and does not give any advice, or make any further sales (insurance or associated products) so there is no benefit or disadvantage to him/her if, the applicant does, or does not sign the application.

TCF is taken care of by; peer to peer auditing of the application through key stages of the process to completion.

Even with all of the above, we still get occasional problems where applicants have misunderstood some aspect of the application, fees or product.

Although an IVA is a contract only for five or six (long) years it is still a fairly complicated procedure for Joe Public to undertake and to fully understand.

This is not a dig at anybody, but; I find it difficult to understand how any professional company or IP can expect and individual to understand the commitment they are undertaking, without it being fully explained to them in detail, preferably face to face.

If ‘IVA factories’ are taking phone calls via call centres, and issuing paperwork based on scripted questioning, without giving proper advice and recorded explanations, the person undertaking the IVA is probably not going to fully understand what they are signing up for. Because of the confusion, this could lead to accusations of miss-selling, and in my opinion, they would be justified. If a client does not understand what is being presented to them, it is the fault of the advisor for failing to properly explain.

Thank god for this forum, and IP’s like Melanie Giles and others that post on here, I am sure that it has stopped some people from making big mistakes, unfortunately not everyone who enters an IVA knows about it.


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Post by Welsh Boy » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:49 am
I posted with regard to the sudden emergence of all these debt companies many months ago and asked the question where were they years ago. I think the regulated person is the IP and not the company, so the problems if any would arrive at their door not the companies. Dave makes a good point in that mis-understood may be a better explanation than mis-sold. Also Mike`s last point about not everyone entering into an IVA is aware of this site is credit to the site and the good work being done here as I believe people considering such a proposition would be so fortunate in gleaning knowledge on what to expect from those who post here. Tony

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Post by MelanieGiles » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:01 am
Mike's post is absolutely spot on, and whilst debt advisors in call centres have probably led to the current claims of misleading advertising and mis-selling, there is always an IP on the end of this, who is a qualified professional and therefore takes complete and ultimate responsibility for the advice given to his client.

Those who operate with little or no contact with their clients, and just become signatures on paperwork, leave themselves wide open for this sort of complaints we regularly receive on this forum. That said, I still feel that 80% or so of people in IVAs fully understand their commitments and quietly go about the business of paying their contributions and returning monies back to creditors.

This is not a bad industry - but as with any there may be one or two bad apples. IPs who mix in such company have to take the criticism on the chin.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
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confusedchris

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Post by confusedchris » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:16 am
TV programme GREAT IDEA! BRILLIANT WE'LL ALL BECOME CELEBRITIES AND END UP HOSTING OUR OWN DAYTIME SCUMBAG TELLY PROGRAMMES

One problem the large Organisations/IVA Factories where I'm guessing most of the criticism will be directed advertise heavily on TV - this begs the question where will the loyalties lie.

I for one strongly believe that I have been mis sold on my IVA...OK before you all start saying 'I signed it' I've already answered that in parallel threads.."You base your opinion on what you're signing on what you're told and when you're told it"...I like many others were sold on the idea that an IVA "takes all the hassle of Creditors chasing away from you (TRUE), you will pay back a fracture of the original debt(POSSIBLY) and you'll be debt free in 5 years at a figure affordable to you (NOT NECESSARILY)" sound familiar and most would have signed almost anything to get a piece of that.

As with all things in life there is good and bad my advice with hindsight, it's a wonderful gift, would be to approach a smaller concern (IP) where you're not just a number in the thousands.

Appear on TV

I think not, Im b***** ashamed of myself!(sorry swear police)
Firstly for getting into the situation and secondly for apparently agreeing to Financial suicide in 4-5 years time when I keep getting told I should have known better.

For the record: I have been told this morning by my IVA factory that if I can't remortgage in 4-5 years time then my equity amount, in today's terms £23000, will be offered to my creditors over a 24 month period (yes folks £958 pm)when I am currently paying £500 into my IVA..never mind if you can't afford it you may offer less but the Creditors have a right to FAIL the IVA at that point...now that's what I have just been told as FACT, others here will tell you different, but thats what I signed, apparently. As i said to the phone voice I would have never signed that if I knew what it meant and that to me is ludicrous and totally uncontrollable/measurable...and begs the question "what's the point of carrying on for another 3-4 years ?

How stupid can I be?....this is not a phone in by the way

CynicalConfusedChris

PS I wish I'd come across Melanie before the FatCatory (Factory) I'm with!
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