Mis-sold IVA ? Please advise.

[The Stones]

Ok here goes, I can feel an essay coming on here! I do realise that some of the following should be discussed with our IP and we are in the process of drafting a letter.
My partner and I have been discussing this subject for over a year now, and finally thought I would submit something on the subject. Yes we have received letters from the IVAC and have disregarded them and still don't agree with the 'company'.

1. What are the rules if you are genuinely mis-sold an IVA?
2. How is it determined if an IVA is mis-sold?

When we had our initial and only meet with our IP we were not given any other options other than discussions about IVA's.
We weren't offered a DMP, only told about IVA and BR.

Never told about the fact you can not go more than 3 payments in arrears not necessarily consecutive. A Q we asked before our IVA because we had an old dog that would more than likely require treatment, and we needed to know where we stood, to which we were told 'not to worry about things like that, it can simply be added to the end of the IVA'. Which isn't quite right, is it? (We now know that)

When we put forward our forms along with I&E to sign up to an IVA, we were told to change our bank account and have our wages transfered to the new account and only pay our household bills, not to pay any loans or credit cards. This was, I believe to make it look like ' o dear they are falling behind now we must do something'.

We think our IP hasn't dealt with many Forces personnel, like ourselves, reason being.....we do need some flexibility due to postings/detatchments or courses to attend and the extra income/money required to do these things. None of these were taken into account when setting up the IVA or even discussed. Might I add here also that we have found the IVA very hard finacially, to the point where a yr ago we couldn't even afford a loaf of bread for sandwiches for sch and mother in law send us money on more than one occassion, We have even had to borrow money from our childs saving account, how bad is that? We have both since had pay rises in line with inflation and a promotion, we are now at a point where we can manage but it has taken an extra £200 income for us to do that, something is wrong somewhere.(we're paying back approx 56p in the £.) When we try to speak to our IP or representative, we feel like we are being treated like idiots rather than a customer, I know we got ourselves into this mess, but we are trying to rectify it by paying as much as we possibly can. The IP company is held in high regard by many in this profession but we have had very little co-operation or correspondence from our IVA company, We have tried to speak to our actual IP but are always told he is a busy man, aren't we all?

Next subject now:
My partner is due a new posting which will be to a different part of the country. Obviously my partner will be ok for a job, but myself will be out of work due to relocation. What happens here? We will no longer have two incomes but still have an IVA to pay, until work is found.
But here crops up another problem. We would like to have a baby. This isn't a rash decision, we have been under a fertility consultant for over two years and have had a couple of loses along the way, so it has been a long time coming and a 7 yr wait. So perhaps when we move we will have one less income due to relocation and a new addition, where do we stand? We did mention to our advisor before taking out an IVA that this was our plan, although I must add, it wasn't noted, ie written down.
Any advise on any of the subjects greatly received! [:D][:D][:D][;)]

Thanks for taking the time to read this post.[:)][:)]

[jasperyogi]

Hi there stones
Cant really answer your question directly, but we too are in the forces and have recently been posted which involved a rent increase of £155. After speaking with our IVA company they agreed for us to reduce the standing order by the full £155 and have arranged a variation meeting with the creditors to get this agreed. We have been advised that the creditors may put another year onto the IVA. My advice to you would be to send a new I+E form with your changes and the amount you are able to pay.
Dont worry I am sure they understand that as forces personel we experiences many changes to our personal circumstances.

[jpj]

It doesnt sound like you were "mis sold" an IVA to me!

If your dog was ill you can miss a payment or 2 with your IPs permission and tack it on to the end of your IVA as far as im aware
DMPs only work in a few cases and maybe your IP had ruled it out so didnt offer it as an option.
Im sure it was stated in your paperwork that you cannot mis more than 3 payments..it is a standard clause in most IVAs I believe.

I didnt pay any loans or credit cards for months before my IVA was approved. Your IP was maybe concerned that unless you paid all your creditors, you may be favouring one over the other. On paper you were obviously insolvent so I doubt your IP was being sneaky.

Many people on here have months when they find their finances very stretched under an IVA. Perhaps BR would have suited you better?

Whilst it is great to have a new baby, It looks like you will be adding to a situation you are already finding hard to manage.
Do you really want to bring a baby into this world at a point when you are so financially crippled? thats a question only you can decide!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do )

[ianmillington]

OK, based upon what you have said.......

I am struggling to define what you have said as describing a mis-sold IVA. Clearly you have had bankruptcy and IVAs discussed. If you are only paying about 56p in the £ I cannot see how a DMP (where there would be no write-off and not necessarily an interest freeze) would finish earlier than your IVA will and so I can't see that being in your interest.

If you genuinely do feel you were mis-advised, there is no set-down procedure you must follow by law, as IPs are self-regulated. The ultimate sanction available to you is a complaint to the IPs licensing body, which may in extreme circumstances result in withdrawal of the IPs license, or a fine. There is no mechanism available to you whereby you can claim compensation, and it's not a way of settling a dispute - it's a disciplinary matter.

You are in fact already doing the right thing in writing to the IP voicing your concerns. If you were to at some stage complain to the IPs licensing body, your complaint won't carry much weight if you haven't given the IP the opportunity to correct things first. This is particularly relevant if the nature of the complaint involves "who said (or didn't) say what to whom". It becomes even more complicated, however. If you take as an example the 3 month default clause, it may well be correct for you to say that it was not drawn to your attention at the time. However, likely as not it will have been in the proposal that you signed as a result of which, in legal terms, the provision was actually put to you in writing.

Bank account? On the basic assumption that the bank was one of your creditors, it's sound advice to recommend changing banks. Stops the bank snaffling your salary when they learn that you are going into an IVA. Unless there's something else like this was several months before you entered into the IVA?

I think, as has been said on many occasions before on this forum, if you talk to the actual Supervisor you may get some help, particularly on the point you make about being not able to afford your current payments.

Your final point? Clearly you will need to firstly see how your proposed family and (as a result) work changes affect things, and discuss these with the Supervisor. The best case scenario would probably be, I suggest, variation of your IVA. Otherwise Bankruptcy seems the only realistic alternative. However, would I be right in assuming that the reason you are in an IVA in the first place is that you had concluded bankruptcy would wreck your career?

Ian

[The Stones]

Than you jasperyogi for your reasurrance. Nice to know others linked to forces can appreciate the eventualities.

jpj I appreciate your comments, and I also appreciate that through the written word one truly can not understand ones circumstances.

Everything you say I can nod at.
Our query in more detail, (it's good to be able to go into more detail)
Before our IVA we could pay our bills and never missed a payment, we had a very good credit rating. I ahd tried to start a business and was stung 6 months into it, (no details here afraid) we asked if I alone could enter an IVA to which we were told no we had to do a joint IVA. If we hadn't done an IVA as of May last year some debts would've been paid, and in june another, in total over £600 would been spare money, we pay £750 in an IVA, surely if a lot of debts were to be paid within 18 months, there would've been other options.
We did see in the contract about the 3 payments thingy, but we weren't told about this when we asked about eventualities happening,eg our dog, who did in the end grow wings and flew to heaven last May, and we specifically asked the Q. When we saw the contract it was too late not to enter into an IVA because we had missed 2 months payments to our debtors, and would've been extremely difficult to repay back, not to mention the default notices.
They did allow us to miss a payment re the vets fees, the problem comes when the bill is over 2k. which alone is nearly the 3 months in arreas, within 2 months of signing upto an IVA our car failed its MOT and cost nearly 1k to correct, this was our first payment drop. The exact reason why we asked what would happen if we had unforeseen circumstances. This we could've managed before but only just.

Re a baby, yet again you are dead right, but and a big but, I found out I was infertile and have been having treatment on the NHS well before the IVA, and again we asked what would happen if we fell PG, (we have only found out how difficult it can be by looking at this site for the last yr.)It is hard that for so long we have wanted to complete our family, 7yrs, to find out there is light. We have gone through too much re fertility to stop now, and this was expressed at our IP meeting/discussion.
We are now, luckily, living ok. So could support a child, bearing in mind that the IP representative said it wouldn't be a problem, so we went ahead with the agreement, with a positive attitude. We have 3 yrs left to our IVA and my body clock is ticking. My other half is a few yrs older than me and that is a concern, for the sake of 3 yrs what would you do?
If we fell PG now, the birth would be Dec, (nearly one yr,) after one yr mat leave that would leave one yr of the IVA left to run. Would they really make us BR if we went for a variation, with only a year left to pay?
I hope i've managed to shed more light on the situation. I wish the site had the facility to record a voice message rather than written, it would be so much easier to express feeling/situations via voice.
BR is not allowed for forces, there are lots of repercussions, my point was should'nt we have been told about DMP in our consultations? Was an IVA really our last option? Were certain details kept from us?

[:)][:(]

[ianmillington]

It seems that a lot hinges on the failed business, which you say was yours rather than joint with your partner. You pose an interesting question here: Yes, if a significant proportion of the debt is yours then arguably you alone could have looked at doing an IVA. However, it's not quite so simple as that. For example all your debts (not just business ones) would need to go into your IVA. If any significant ones were joint, then there could be a domino effect that would result in the need for an IVA for your partner too. Alternatively you might have ended up with the ironic situation that, whilst not actually being in an IVA, your partners income would have to be taken into account in yours.

I'm not sure I entirely understand the point you make about being able to repay the debts within 18 months (in which case did you have a problem at all?) against a 5 year IVA producing 56 p in the £. I must be missing something. Did you lose an enormous sum of money through the business? Alternatively are you merely suggesting that specific debts could have been repaid in that period.

As I see it, you have a couple of alternatives here: Either you discuss the situation with your IP to make your IVA work for you or you work on an exit route. What route that will be will depend upon how much debt you have and your disposable income level. I note that your IVA is between 1 and 2 years old so unless you can repay your debts either informally or in a DMP in less than 4 years it seems best to try to make the IVA work if you can.

Having said all that, you will appreciate that in the absence of all the relevant facts (and figures) the advice you will receive on this forum will to a large degree be generic. It is somewhat dangerous for me to provide detailed advice on this forum without knowledge of all the facts and even more dangerous for you to rely on it! For detailed advice, specific to your circumstances, you might consider consulting an IP practising in your locality. I'm sure someone local will be prepared to have a confidential chat with you free of charge.

Hope this helps.

ian

[The Stones]

Thanks Ian, I didnt see your post. (Firstly, do you have a brother called Dave?)
I will try address each point as is written.
Firstly can I say I haven't written this post trying gain monetarily. Purely to find other people opinions, due to the fact that we do not know anybody who has or is going through a smilar situation. We are not looking for any discipilinary action either. When you enter such a life changing agreement, you expect to have all the facts. Like a said we are drafting a letter to the IP to express our disapointment on the lack of correspondence etc and some things that are coming to light even after 2 yrs. You are also correct when you say these details I have spoken about were in the contract, but why when we asked the direct Q's were we not given the correct answer, perhaps because the IP gains payments from each case and they wanted our business??? Right or wrong this is how we are beginning to feel, that these IVA companies are in it for money as anybody would be, and perhaps once the hooks are in it's too late to pull out??? cynical I know.
We knew we'd have t change banks, that isn't the issue, the Q i'd like to ask is, why are you advised not to pay debtors and forward any begging letters etc, we have never missed any payments.
We have also tried to contact the IP directly, lthough I haven't emailed him, just thought of that now. When we were really struggling we asked for a variations meeting, both our wages increased so more should've been paid into the IVA, I know that, but thay wanted us to pay all our wage increase and added some more on to repay arrears we had. We weren't happy with that and asked for a variation, we rang and rang the company to find out the progress, we sent them I&E and each time we called they said,"send us an I&E" which we had already done. 5 months later the person dealing our case no longer works for the company and the new person said she didn't have a problem with not increasing our payment due to our incresed expediture, this whole process has taken 5 months to be told a variation won't be needed. arrgghh!.
You're assumption re our choice to take an IVA. I suppose what i'm trying to say and did in the post to jpj is....some of our debts/loan would've been paid now. We would've rightly enough still had credit cards to pay off. We did have a big debt but most would've been completed in 1.5 to 2 yrs. We feel we struggled more in the first 18 months of the IVA than before we took it out. Don't get me wrong IVA's are a great thing they do make you budget more wisely and it has taught us a few lessons and we will be debt free in 3 yrs from now, we simply feel we weren't advised fully when we were at our most vunerable. I know IVA's are there to teach you to budget too, but I never expected to not be able to afford the most basic things like bread, not now but about 8 months ago and before. I must say we are financially ok right now and don't really have an issue with payments. We sat down and asked each other the Q's and advice i've seeked, and couldn't answer our own queries.
What an epic![:D]

[The Stones]

Sorry can't keep up with you, your on the ball.

[The Stones]

very brief, incase you respond, which'll mean i'm behind. We didn't hve any joint debts. Business loan wasn't huge but I also had big solicitors fees trying to trademark before an ex friend stole my company name/passing off, etc long story. My partner had a big loan of 23k so had more debt but it was managable, but I couldn't manage mine on the wage i was getting when i became employed, so we enquired about the IVA route. I was struggling and I alone was more than willing to declare BR, would they have taken my partners wage into account? there must be a reason why we both did an IVA. They told us to do an IVA and when we asked if just I could they said NO it had to be together. Now i'm confused!
Thanks Ian

[The Stones]

O yes I need to point out that not ALL debts would've been paid in this period of time.

[ianmillington]

Nope, I don't have a brother called Dave[:)]You wouldn't be a fellow Jagger fan BTW?

Okay, your problem. The devil is in the detail, and I'm mindful that we don't have all the background here. However, based on what you say, had you approached me at the time I think I would probably have advised you both to think about entering into IVAs.

Reasons? Given your circumstances I would have felt very uncomfortable recommending a piecemeal repayment of debt, particularly given the contentious manner in which your debts arose. The risk of a wheel coming off as a result of action from one of the creditors who didn't receive payments would be quite sizeable, and you would potentially be faced with claims of preference.

Similarly I would struggle recommending you to enter into an IVA while your partner repaid a debt of that magnitude. My thought here is that the creditors would probably have wanted your partners income to be brought into account and probably wouldn't have liked to have to take a hit if they saw your partners debt being repaid in full.

I emphasise my use of the word "probably" here. I have the luxury of hindsight and, dare I say, I have a first class honours degree in it. In real time, would the advice have been the same? Quite probably but I can't say I actually know. Your circumstances are such that I would clearly need to meet you, and talk through the issues, particularly in the circumstances of your business problem. Without doing that I would not be able to come off the fence I'm afraid, but the solution of 2 IVAs does not appear to be entirely without merit.

Can I ask - your contributions - are you paying in accordance with the proposal or did you have an increase imposed by creditor modification?

Also, is it just your partner who is in the forces, or is it both of you?

Sorry if I'm not directly answering all the points you have raised but as this correspondence unfolds the more clear it is that your position is/was not straightforward.

It might be tomorrow before I'm able to reply to your response.

Ian

[The Stones]

I will reply fully tomorrow, but you made me chuckle[:D][:D] Love your humour.
I'm off work ill at the moment so I will respond fully tomorrow with a fresh head, or later if I get a second breath

[MelanieGiles]

Just a final late night point from me - HMAF are starting to become far more realistic about bankruptcy, and it is not the case that this is not allowed or results in instant dismissal any more - althouhg certain appointments may be affected.

So if you do need some direct advice on that point, send me an e-mail via my website as I do not want you to post sensitive information about your units or ranks on the forum.

Having a family and living your lives is far more important than struggling to afford unaffordable payments, but a sensible IP and a sensible ongoing plan will usually find a compromise to suit everyone.

[AlanO]

I agree with Melanie.

I have taken HMAF personnel & Police Officers through bankruptcy and it has not resulted in dismissal - Very much depends on circumstances and demonstrating that you have tried the alternatives

I suggest you contact Melanie to discuss your options

all the best alan

www.debtdr.co.uk

[ianmillington]

I would agree that there is a significant amount of information here that The Stones is holding back, probably with good reason, hence my stated inability to actually come off the fence, and my recommendation to speak to the Supervisor or another IP. That remains the case.

Ian