I've sent Andy an email so hopefully he will put you in touch with each other.
Sharing from experiences of dealing with debt
The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively.
Bob Marley. http://kallis3.blogs.iva.co.uk
As previously mentioned the Green decision is under appeal and therefore is not held as law or precedent until such time as the appeal is heard and no further appeals are lodged. Further the decision in the case of Re N T Gallagher & Son Limited [2002] 3 All ER 474, which currently stands, holds that a trust exists post completion of the arrangement for the handling and distribution of assets of the arrangement.
Regarding the holding, or witholding, of funds (I cannot claim ownership to the following thoughts, which came about during a discussion on the case with an Insolvency professional, who is far more clued up than I) : The Green v. Wright judgment was stayed pending the appeal and IPs should be keeping the funds on hand to protect them in the event of a successful appeal. Any firm being paid money by a PPI company is perfectly entitled to cash the cheque and leave the funds in their client account until such time as they receive further instructions or the court makes a decision. They could not return the funds to the debtor in case they were spent but nor should they distribute the funds to creditors until the final decision has been made.
Where there might be a problem is if the appeal court rules in favour of Wright and all those people who have their certificates but did not sign deeds of assignment ask for their money. IPs holding the funds in their client accounts should be fine, but what of those firms who have taken their cut and distributed the rest to creditors? They could be in big trouble unless they can recoup the money from creditors and reimburse their fees which would be a financial and logistical nightmare.
Finally, if the appeal court rules in favour of Wright it could jeopardise the entire industry as the Paymex case could rear its head. In these circumstances IPs reclaimed VAT from closed cases and distributed the money to creditors but if you follow the logic in the Green v Wright case then the money could actually have belonged to the debtors. No debtor signed a DoA for VAT so, in theory, the money could be theirs and untold numbers of former IVAers will be suing their IPs!
That is a nightmare that no one wants and when the appeal court judges eventually make their ruling it could be something that they need to factor in.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
The same logistical nightmare may apply to people's closed IVAS who have been given their ppi directly by the banks and have spent it so what may happen then please Foggy any experts do you think Does it mean the need for another IVA or bankruptcy or a payment plan this worries me? Closed cases with completion cetificates and no ppi proviso should remain closed or some will end up back in financial difficulty resulting in stress and even illness
Too difficult to second guess Cloudy as the judgement might take these things into consideration and be modified accordingly.
Ultimately it will be the IP's responsibility and most will have taken precautions of getting DoA's signed or referring to PPI in the completion documentation ( in those cases -- in the scenario you describe, where the debtor has subsequently claimed and spent PPI refunds, the debtor would have broken the agreement and will need to repay somehow ).
Those that have not retained an interest in PPI, I feel, should not then be able to pursue it, as the debtor, it can be argued, was genuinely of the mind that the refund was his or hers to do with as wished. It might take another court case to decide that one!
I imagine that part of the decision making process will factor in the grounds that PPI is a transitional beast and will disappear in a couple of years.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
I know what you mean Foggy, but I don't see how you can break an agreement that has been officially and legally ended in full as being complied with and if the banks themselves afterwards decide to send a payment to you they must have thought that it should come to you as well. Then if an IVA firm has not accounted for PPI as a proviso in a completion certificate or final report hey have missed the boat in my mind and need to make their systems and paperwork more robust/sound in the future.
An IVA firm who gets someone out of debt should not then be able to back track once a certificate of completion has confirmed a legal end to an IVA as the person on it is no longer bound by it's obligations. Also if there is no deed of assignment which agrees any subsequent PPI settlements this adds to what I am saying and the PPI should be sent to the former debtor because he/she/they do not now have any obligations under the IVA. In fact after an IVA has ended banks I think are in breach of data protection also by talking to anyone else at all about ppi other than the person to whom it applies?
If the case rules in favour of Wright I will in no way feel sorry for IPs having to pay all the money out. I went through 5 years of having to account for every penny I spent or earned when I signed up for my IVA. I chose the option as opposed to bankruptcy as I thought it only right I attempt to pay some of my money back. 5 years after that I am now having the whole thing dragged back out of the woodwork over the PPI fiasco. Perhaps if IPs hadn't decided to quibble over terms in our IVAs for their own benefit, for the fees they would get from distributing PPI refunds to creditors in completed IVAs and just accept that our IVAs had completed and as PPI wasn't in existence at the time then maybe we wouldn't all be in this mess!!! It's only because of their actions trying to say that it forms an asset even after completion putting it under the umbrella of them doing it for the benefit of creditors, when clearly it is all for the money their firms will make, that the Green Wright case even came to light. If they had left completed IVAs alone we wouldn't even be having this discussion. So if they have to pay all the money out back then so be it!
It is such a shame that a forum which is a godsend for many refuses to let members who want to contact each other for a bit of support do so. Also there is still an option to email a member on this site but it does not exist and neither do frugal friends which I could really do with at the moment. Have a good day all ..stressed....
I'm sorry Cloudy but those are the forum rules and people (including myself) have had problems in the past from others who monitor this site and want to cause trouble.
The forum does let people get in touch with each other (as I have also done) but it has to be done via admin. I have emailed Andy twice now.
The option for the email was disabled way before I started posting on here in 2008 but I don't know why the facility is still on there.
Sharing from experiences of dealing with debt
The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively.
Bob Marley. http://kallis3.blogs.iva.co.uk
The removal of contact details is for your protection. In the past there have been instances where unwanted attention has been the result of details appearing in an open forum and the forum admin are trying to prevent repeats of this.
As Kallis says -- a note to Andy will give you the contact details your require, once he has permission of both parties.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
The icon should be removed to avoid further confusion. Why not both contact Andy Davie direct and I'm sure he'll facilitate putting you in touch with one another.
IVA final payment left the bank on the 26th January 2013...looking forward to a debt free future.
Hopefully Andy can help you out - I've contacted him again.
Sharing from experiences of dealing with debt
The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively.
Bob Marley. http://kallis3.blogs.iva.co.uk
