OR Telephone Meeting Today

[UPINSMOKE]

Thanks Queenie its nice to know there is someone out there with your knowledge, and I am sure any new BR's that are on here will be able to tap into you advice. Just wish you had been around when I was filling out my forms it may have helped.

Would you know what sort of estimate the agents may put on the Items I mentioned before. This would give me some Idea on what to get my friend to offer.

Mick

[queenie]

It's difficult to say, it will depend largely on the agent's opinion of what they know they will get at their particular auction house. I would not be surprised if it is less than the £300 you have available from your friend. If you want to move it forward faster, find out from the OR which agent they are using and get your friend to call them directly and have a chat.

Queenie

[UPINSMOKE]

Hi All again. Well just out of the blue I have recieved an IMA from the OR. Now it states that I will have to pay £185 per month/week. The first cotribution will be made in the month/week in which the Inland Revenue applied the NT coding and will continue until the end of the current tax year.

My question is, will this be the only payments I will make from now till April.

Or have I got it wrong???

I submitted a I@E on my forms, they have asked for a new one, but cannot do that until I know whats happening to my car. So have been told to wait the 7 days and iform them if I don't hear from their agents. They then will wait till the cars sorted before I do a new I & E. But now this IPA has turned up whats going on.

[Skippy]

It sounds as though this is your tax IPA. In the tax year that you are BR you will be given a Nil Tax Code meaning that you will not pay any tax or insurance. Sadly you don't get to keep it though! You must pay this over to the OR.

When you completed your IVA how much surplus did you have? The OR will generally only implement a normal (as opposed to tax) IPA if there is more than £100 surplus availble.

Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is the present - a gift to make the most of.

View my blog at http://skippy13.blogs.iva.co.uk/

[UPINSMOKE]

Thanks Skippy, I thought that would be it. But how wrong was I then. My I & E I had a minus surplus that is I had more going out than coming in. That's if the OR does not reduce my outgoings. As below.

Income £930 wages
Pension £53
Child Benefit £18
Child Tax Credit £150

Total £1,151

Outgoings

Rent £104 but taken from wages so does not count

Housekeeping £350

Gas/Elec £80

Water Rates £0.00 included in accommodation

Telephone/ Mobiles £55

Traveling £40

Clothing £80

Council Tax £97

Car Tax/ Insurance £25

Car Repairs Servicing £50

Life/Household Insurance £42

TV £12

Internet £13

Pet Care/Insurance £44

Hairdressing £20

Medical £20

Holidays £50

Total £1,082

Think I should have added more to Gas/Elec as I have a direct debit for Electric at £50 this is what EDF Energy said I should pay. So only £30 left for gas heating which I think will not be enough. As for the rest this will be dependent on if I manage to get the car back. If not then it will have to be re calculated.

[queenie]

As long as your income and outgoings stay more or less the same you will probably only have to pay the NT coding payment until April.
Do you have to pay anything such as school dinners or after school clubs etc for your children as this would be allowed up to the amount of your child benefit!

Queenie

[UPINSMOKE]

Sorry not sure what you mean, I had forgotten about school dinners. I give my daughter £2.50 a day to get something to eat and drink. I also thought that child benefit and Child tax credit was exempt from income calculation or do I have this wrong also.

[queenie]

I am sure they would be including these as income, but if you have child related income such as child benefit you would be allowed to use that for your children's specific expenses.
It is possible some Official Receiver's would differ in their treatment of them, but in my experience they would include them as income

Queenie

[mish1953]

Upinsmoke .
Sorry Mick - this is a biggy

you might want to have a good look at this ..
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/freedomofi ... technical/
TechnicalManual/Ch25-36/Chapter31/part2/part3/part_3.htm

In particular note item 31.2.21 ... The value of the vehicle is not a determining factor.

When I 'lost' my motorbike it was explained to me that the OR is very particular about vehicles , indeed the OR may have to insure your vehicle.

I have come across a chap on another forum who has lost his car - worth £200 !

The question of the value of the veicle ONLY arises if the vehicle is ALREADY considered to be exempt and that the vehicle is of excess value , if that is the case then the vehicle will be sold and a suitable replacement up to the value of £2000 is acceptable .

Basically is you cant persuade the OR that your vehicle is exempt - its gone .

Read the above link its really useful.

I'm not being pickky but if your car has no MOT then its not road legal and your insurance is void until you get it MOT'd, you can drive it to the MOT centre and back - otherwise you can get nicked !

On the other stuff .. assets .. while you are BR you dont own jack schitt ..
"The bankrupt's estate comprises all property belonging to or vested in the bankrupt at the commencement of the bankruptcy [note 1] except,
such tools, vehicles and other equipment as are necessary to the bankrupt for use personally be him/her in his/her employment, business or vocation and, such clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment and provisions as are necessary for satisfying the basic domestic needs of the bankrupt and his/her family.
subject to certain excluded property reclaimable by the trustee [note 2].
A motor vehicle may be exempted under section 283(2)(a) or under section 283(2)(b) in very limited circumstances (see paragraph 31.2.23.)"

Have a look at
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/freedomofinformation/
technical/casehelpmanual/E/ExemptProperty.htm

It'll scare you silly !

Most OR's are reasonable about domestic stuff but if you I&E is very close or your E seems to exceeed your I they will scrutanise everything.

My car is exempt as I need to use it for work, 24/7 callout , anywhere in the county , I 'lost' my motorbike .. I was given a choice of which I was going to use for work.

I declared my home PC printer etc - value approx £150, and justified it as being exempt as I need to it maintain my professional work (Im an IT geek ) and for my daughters homework and education.

Some OR's a harder than others but it looks like you have one thats playing it by the book .

"If a bankrupt's expenditure appears to equate exactly with his/her evidenced income, leaving nothing to pay into the estate, the figures should be closely examined and a full explanation sought"
thats from ..
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/freedomofinformation/
technical/TechnicalManual/Ch25-36/Chapter31/part7/part2/part_2.htm

On the Child Benefit / tax credit
quote "The High Court has stated as a matter of public policy that child benefit and similar benefits should not be included in the statement of income when applying for an IPO and there is no reason why this point should not be extended to cover IPAs."

thats from ..
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/freedomofinformation/
technical/TechnicalManual/Ch25-36/Chapter31/part7/part2/part_2.htm

Slainte
MIsh

PS - OR's are assessed on their PRODUCTIVITY
part of that is
"Number of cases where income payment order/agreement obtained by official receiver "

see ..
http://www.insolvency.gov.uk/otherinfor ... rmance.htm

told ya I was a geek ! [8D]

Hi Mish.. great post but sorry we have to put the links onto 2 lines
as a long link alters the page width to accomodate.. and makes it necessary to scroll across the page to read the postings ...
To those wishing to access these excellent links, please cut and paste the whole link (i.e. both lines as one )[:)]
regards, admin team

[BrassicLintus]

So sorry to hear your having such a hard time with your OR Mick. Just a quick thought, if they are going to take your car then presumably they will disallow all related I&E (ie petrol, car insurance), so you must increase your travel costs (bus pass, train tickets etc) to reflect this. And as others have said wait and see what they value your goods at - I doubt very much that they would make any more than the £300 your friend can offer, so you may be able to get them for less. It's such a shame that this is happening - your trying your hardest to get your life back on track and then something like this just knocks you back down again. Good luck with it all.

Sam

[Adam Davies]

Hi Mish
Great post,it seems that most ORs are actually a little lenient and as you say Upinsmokes is just playing it by the book
Regards


Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp

[UPINSMOKE]

Thanks mish1953 and BrassicLintus for your input. Mish it certainly made good reading, but on the other hand its now made me realize that my situation may be worse than I thought, with what they allow and what they don't.I will have to really be careful now on my I&E when i fill it out.

It seems to me that I was struggling to make ends meet before BR but least i could get away at the weekends for a drive with my daughter and forget about all my troubles etc. But after BR I don't see myself any better off than being dept free. My only enjoyment IE driving my car, photography, computer, and the occasional golf has all been taken from me.

I now feel I am trapped in four walls for the next 3 years, just like being in prison. Losing the car is the one thing I will miss, and shopping is going to be hell as there is no easy way for me to do this on a weekly basis without the car. Need 2 buses to get to the supermarket but once there how the hell do they expect me to carry it all home. Usually have between 8 to 10 bags. And as for the odd items such as milk etc that we all seem to run out of, means a trek of a mile to the nearest shop to get it.

This is really getting me down, I feel as if they have singled me out for extra punishment. Can't keep my mind on my work, keep snapping at my daughter over such little things. Its really not what I expected just want it over and done.

Still no contact from the Agents of the OR about the Items they want to take, if I could settle this it would at least let me move on and I would know what I would be doing.

One little bit of good news is that my wifes mother has offered me an extra £100 toward getting my things back from the OR if I need it. Something she wanted to do to help me out so my daughter could still be able to be take down to see them by car. They are both in their 70s and cannot travel to us.

Anyway had my rant and feel a bit better for that now, thanks everyone for you support. Its nice to know there is someone I can talk to.

Regards Mick

PS can anyone have a look at my I & E in previous post and tell me if they think this would be approved or any changes I should be making or adding, lost the plot now I read the post of Mish. I just need to get this right.

Thanks

[MelanieGiles]

Let noone believe that bankruptcy is an easy option. This post clearly confirms this point.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
http://www.melaniegiles.com/ivaEnquiry.asp

See customer feedback at:
http://www.iva.com/iva_companies/IVA_Advice_Bureau.asp

[spla]

if your child has use of said property would they also belong to them and when you told the child that they where going they reminded you that you bought them for ther birthday they might not actualy belong to you a part from the car i would ask if or would let there child walk 25miles to see there gran just a thought with honesty being the best policey and all that

[mish1953]

Mick

If its any help / consolation .. if you can afford to buy another car/bike/trike, then you can !

The bankrupt's estate comprises all property belonging to or vested in the bankrupt at the commencement of the bankruptcy.

I've managed to buy my self a wee bike (550cc) for under £500, I have told my trustee about it and they aren't bothered as its after the commencement of my bankruptcy ! I bought it off a mate and have bunged him a £100 a month to pay for it . It's a pile of poo but it works [8D]

As the OR is having your Reliant , you need to work out the cost of transport, work out the bus fares for all of you, back it up with evidence and the OR will have little choice to allow it .

Your car servicing costs were a bit bonkers [:D] £50 x12 = £600 a year for a £500 car . Pets usually only allowed about £20. You might be able to push up the clothing allowance , £80 for how many , daughter growing etc . The holidays is discretionary - the guidelines says £80 for family of four .. I didnt get any at all.
Laundry/dry cleaning
School Meals
School trips
Children’s pocket money
Some of those are discretionary... you need to make sure that you have some surplus otherwise the OR will get snotty about it, the 'trick' is to get that surplus under £100 so that there is no IPA .

Bear in mind that the OR's staff are assessed on performance and their pay is slightly performance related.. you can be pretty sure that most OR staff are going to be trying to get an IPA .

Im BR , it isn't easy, but Ive got no debts which is good and I pay an IpA of £80 a month, money is still tight but its sooo much better than before. Im losing my house which is hard but thats they way the crumble cookies .

You'll find that you'll get more relaxed by about month 3. the first couple of months are a sod, trying to work out how you'll manage etc . Im on month 4 , xmas will be hard but hey ho santa's bells will still ring, yule manage [:D]

Wee random thought -- If you managed with all the debt and yippeee the debts gone, then it'll be hard but it should be liveable -- its a fresh start, a new way of living , change is never easy and it takes time to settle in. I'm 54 and for me,life is more positive now than is was pre BR, Im finding ways to have fun without spending so much . Golf not my thing but buy 2 clubs driver and a wedge, secondhand, get down to the driving range, get 100 balls and smack the bejesus out of them. Frak .. that was a big thought.. oops[:I]

Slainte
Mish

Will an automatic discharge hurt.