payments will total more than my original debt

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MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:55 pm
Hi uni

Yes - everytime they work on your file they will be incurring more costs. We call it the "open cheque book" way of charging, and I am suprised that the creditors allowed this basis of charges to be frank.

I feel for you on this one - these are some of things that give IVAs and IPs a bad name both with creditors and clients alike. Nail down those future costs now - as there is no way they should be incurring £2,500 of charges each year for supervising a simple IVA.

Who is the IP by the way?

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

uni

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Post by uni » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:04 pm
Melanie,

I'm with Payplan, I started with Shaws but they apparently changed their name to Payplan not too long ago. I'm a little worried because in the year that I incurred £2044.94 in charges I dont remember having many dealings with them and recently I've exchanged 5 or 6 emails with them, have I just run up another few hundred pounds without realising? And why would an IP trying to help me out of debt set up a proposal that would run up even more debts?
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:45 pm
Hi uni - this gets stranger and stranger

So far as I am aware, Payplan have used a percentage of asset realisations as the basis of their fee structure for some time, and before then they fixed their charges. The latter is the norm now, and to be honest my fees have always been based upon a fixed charge - to provide certainty to both debtor and creditor in terms of dividend return.

You should ask them for a full time summary to date, showing the hourly charge out rate for each member of staff who has worked on your case, and the amount of time they say they have worked. And also ask them to jusify why so more more time has been incurred since their estimate of £3,000 for five years.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

neverending

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Post by neverending » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:46 pm
Uni
I have the same charging as you on my IVA ,i:e open cheque book, and I have challenged it to no avail.My advice would be to just knuckle down and pay your IVA to term[you are VERY unlikely to pay interest].
The more you corrospond with your IP the higher the costs so you are in a catch 22 position.
I am hoping to end my IVA shortly with a full and final settlement figure.If accepted, and once I have the certificate of completion framed on the wall ,I will be challenging the fees charged so watch this space.
regards
Andy Davie
 
 

yewtree

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Post by yewtree » Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:50 am
Hi Melanie,

I've been through my proposal and I found the clause...it says "in the event of all creditors claims being paid in full then interest shall be paid at the prevailing statutory rate".

I'm not worrying so much now though - just have to sit out the next 4 or so years.
Thanks for your help everyone,

Davina
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Fri Feb 23, 2007 11:11 am
Oh that's a horrible clause. You don't find that in my proposals!

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk
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stella

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Post by stella » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:57 pm
Hi to everyone today.

Just had a look at my proposal. Mine states in the windfall clause that I have to pay all monies in up to the value of outstanding costs and creditors claims, in full, plus statutory interest. My IP's charges, both nominees and supervisors charges including disbursements and VAT amount to £8700 for the whole 5 years and no other charges. It also states that if the IVA is paid off earlier the fee will be lowered proportionately. If the IVA extends beyond 60 months they have the right to charge an additional fee of 1/60th for each month. Does this sound about right ?

Thanks XX
 
 

uni

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Post by uni » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:47 pm
Good Afternoon Folks,

I'm starting to get a little upset about my IP, they were my best friend when I was looking to set up the IVA but it's now starting to look like they stacked the proposal with ways to get rich quick out of my situation. And from what others have said, I'm not alone, is this really the way that licensed IPs operate? I'm putting together a list of bits and pieces and will email it to my supervisor next week, I figure one email so they dont run up much more of a bill but in the mean time I'm going to carefully read through my proposal and make sure I'm happy with the rest.

I'm starting to think that the best way forward is to try and final settlement thingy, i.e. find enough from a family member to bring my payments up to 75% of the original debt and offer it up. Does anyone have any advice on what is a likely level to be accepted?
 
 

uni

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Post by uni » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:57 pm
Also folks, this question doesnt seem to have produced a response yet

"One question that has just entered my head is about the "Windfall Claus". If I bought a scratch card and won £25,000, I would have to give about £12,500 to my IP, that's the rules and they seem fair. Co-incidentally, that is the amount I have left to pay, but would the IP say "thank you very much, thats out fees paid, we'll expect our payment next month as usual" or would they say "oh, that's your payments made, here's your certificate"?"

The reason I ask is that I may well be getting a company car soon and so will want to sell mine. Ofcourse with the windfall tax, I mean claus, I will probably have to pay over half of what I get for it. But will that money go into the IPs pocket or will it go on top of the pile I have already paid and bring me that little bit closer to my goal?
 
 

ivamole

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Post by ivamole » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:22 pm
With regard to IPs charging open-ended time costs these can be challenged by reference to Statement of Insolvency Practice 9. Copies available at http://www.r3.org.uk/uploaded_documents ... ersion.pdf

But the essential document is called Technical Bulletin No.65 issued by R3 in August 2004. The bulletin was issued following an important judgement by Registrar Baister which set out a list of 'guiding principles' (including value for money and proportionality) against which fees can be judged.

You can ask your IP to justify their fees - and fees charged on a time cost basis are the hardest to justify. Would you pay a decorator by the hour ? How slowly can you paint.

If there is nothing extraordinary about an IVA and with a 'going rate' of £1000pa (which itself sometimes seems hard to justify) for supervisor's fees then anything significantly over this sum could be challenged as being 'excessive and disproportionate' on applicatin to the court under s.263 of the Insolvency Act.

It would be important to take legal advice first but I would suggest that the more IPs fees deviate from the going rate the greater the prospect of success.

£2,500 pa, for example, would be harder to justify than £1,150pa! 150% over the 'going rate' compared with 15% would be more likely to justify the risk of going to court.

But remember that if the court considered that an IP had overcharged then the money would go back into the IVA trust account and creditors would benefit (unless you've repaid everything owed) so it would make sense to get them on side from the start.

There would nonetheless be the satisfaction of knowing that you've repaid your creditors as you originally intended rather than lining the pockets of a profiteering IP.

If you won, the court judgement would also go against the IP with their professional body and it would also set precedent that should help other debtors.
 
 

stella

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Post by stella » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:12 pm
Sorry but would be a good idea if I said that the total IP charges I stated were for the proposed IVAs for both me and my husband! not just mine before anyone has kittens!!

XX
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:51 pm
Just to answer all of these points.

I appreciate that it is fashionable at the moment to slate insolvency practitioners and the basis of their charges, and I am the first to admit that there are members of my profession who appear to charge higher than others for the same service, however you have to appreciate that most of us provide a professional service to both debtor and creditors and of course there are costs involved in paying for this service.

It is generally the creditors who agree the basis of the IP's fees under SIP 9. And in all of you signing up to the propsals you signed up to, you also agreed the basis of those fees. I assume that no one forced anyone into an IVA with their eyes closed!

Also assets recovered under a windfall clause are not subject to the usual 50% uplift modification, but the entire proceeds will need to be handed over to the Supervisor.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

ivamole

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Post by ivamole » Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:58 pm
I don't think anyone disagrees with the proposition that IPs are entitled to charge reasonable professional fees but - with time related costs in particular - the only guidance given at the outset is the estates provided in the Nominee's report. There is a duty to provide estimates that are reasonable and realistic.

The fact that a debtor has agreed to an IVA Proposal does not in itself prevent a challenge on fees. The parties to an IVA are bound by statute, not by contract and the courts have the power to intervene.

I was simply saying that in those circumstances both SIP 9 and the decision of Register Baister would be relevant.

In most cases debtors will, of course, accept the fees charged but there are obvious cases of IPs charging excessive and disproportionate fees and it would help both debtors, creditors and the profession alike if more challenges were made in those cases through the courts.
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:16 pm
I do not agree with your second paragraph - an IVA is a contractual arrangement between debtor, creditors and IP. There is actually little statutory provisions to rely on when it comes to adjudicating IVA's in Court, the Insolvency Act and Rules are lightweight, and case law is minimal in an area where complaints and legal actions are rarely submitted or followed up. These days the Court plays little role in the administration of IVA cases.

There is no statutary provisions relating to the fees charged by IP's under IVA's, merely contractual agreements, but I would challenge anyone to try and get one through on the basis of time costs now. The main banks and credit card companies, together with H M Revenue & Customs, simply would not wear it. A time costs resolution has no place certainly in consumer debt cases.

We are constantly under pressure by creditors to deliver more monitoring work at a lower price. That is why IVA factories have sprung up recently, as the only real way to make money out of this work is by doing relatively high volumes. There is a disproportionate representation within this one area of the insolvency marketplace, from a relatively few firms who produce 80% of the work.

You may be interested to know that there is a committee presently looking at standardising fees within our industry for IVA's. They must, however, come up with realistic costs to cover the work - both practical and from increasing compliance - or more good specialist IP's will simply pack up shop.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

stella

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Post by stella » Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:29 pm
Hi and thanks for replying.

Just to clarify a point. I hope I did not sound like I was trying to slate IP's, I definitely wasn't, as I know how the charges work
and I think both mine and my husband's IVA proposals happen to be good ones, I just wanted to clarify not slate the points regarding the windfall clause not anything to do with IP's charges, I just wanted to let you know how our charges were worked out. After looking at this site, I definitely think that there are some really good IP's around and there are definitely ones to keep clear of but I think by now, we all know who they are. Keep up the good work I say, there is some really good advice to be had on here.

XX
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