In my previous post I explained that I had been asked to repay ovetime payments retrospectively despite this clause not being in my original proposal.
You kindly responded as follows:Simple - if the clause is not covered off within the proposal then Poppy does not have to pay over any additional money, and the IP should not be asking for it.
One word of caution though Poppy - do check your Chairman's Report as well as the proposal, as if the IP did not included it at the time the proposals were drafted it is very likely to have been modified in by way of creditor resolution - which you would have had to have agreed to at the time of the original creditors meeting.
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Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.
** I have checked the chairman's report and again no mention of overtime payments. I have tried disputing having to pay retrospectively but to no avail. Apparently it is not relevant that it was an oversight when my IVA was arranged and that the clause is not in our proposal or chairmans report. The overtime clause is incuded in the standard conditions for IVAs booklet so I cant dispute it.
Could you please advise if this is correct?
Many thanks
poppy cock about it does not matter if they add it afterwards.you and your creditors agreed to your original proposal and you and your iva company agreed to the chairmans report.that is a legal binding document set before the courts and laws of the land.what it says is all that you have to abide by.
every proposal is individual and the protocol about whats set out in a proposal is only there to guide.
i would challenge them to enforce it and if they do take it higher.
cc received 6th January 2014 now upwards and onwards
Back on track - This may not necessarily be poppy cock. If the proposal / chairmans report came with an IVA booklet of Terms & Conditions then I presume they form part of the proposal. Make sure you check out the standard terms and conditions that you were sent. Our proposal was only a few pages long, but it came with DFD'S Indivual Arrangement T & C's. I presumed these were all part and parcel of the entire package.
Last edited by KAYKAY on Sat Dec 17, 2011 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1) Have you seen the overtime clause written in this booklet?
2) Were you actually sent this IVA Booklet you refer to at any stage when your proposal was being drafted? If so, then I assume the T & C's form part of the proposal.
3) If you didn't receive the booklet until after the IVA was agreed, then you may have a case.
that does not sound very good then if its a one size fits all proposal.my proposal was an individual document with everything geared towards my situation at the time.not really an iva then but a general arrangement thats open to all sorts of changes as it goes on.
they still say it was an oversight that the claus was not included in the proposal so if its not written into the proposal at the outset how can they add it in after without getting a variation set up to imform and change the terms again.bet they would not want the creditors to know of there cock up in not including it at the outset.
cc received 6th January 2014 now upwards and onwards
I have dug out my documents and had a look. I think the Terms & Conditions are standard for all who take out a IVA with the company I went with, and it's the proposal which stipulates any individual terms that are relevant to the individual over and above the standard terms & conditions. Please note I am not taking sides here just pointing out what I understood at the time of my IVA. I suppose the IVA is like any contract and has terms & conditions that are standard.
My IVA was taken out in 2005 and before IVA's were protocol compliant. There is nothing in my T & C's regarding overtime. Overtime was never available to myself or my husband, so didn't form part of my IVA at all. What I was trying to say was, that my T & C's look like a set of basic rules which would have at the time applied to all IVA's done through my company. If this clause does appear in the standard T & C's of whichever company Poppy6 has chosen, then would she have a case? Would be interested to know if other IVA's have a set of T&C's as standard. Hope you understand where I am coming from and that I am not causing further confusion.
yeah understand what your saying but it seems a very bad way of setting up a proposal.i thought all proposals were set up for each individual and thats what the law sees as set in stone.thats where all these individual claus's come in.
cc received 6th January 2014 now upwards and onwards
font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:<hr height="1" noshade>Originally posted by back on track
yeah understand what your saying but it seems a very bad way of setting up a proposal.i thought all proposals were set up for each individual and thats what the law sees as set in stone.thats where all these individual claus's come in.
As with many contracts there are tiers to the terms.
The basic framework, if protocol compliant, are the Standard Conditions. Which also act as a fallback in case things are not covered elsewhere ( for whatever reason).
Then, these Conditions are fine tuned to match individual's circumstances by the Proposal itself (which should contain reference to the Standard Conditions as applying).
Then .... things are again fine tuned to match the creditors requirements in the Chairman's Report.
Each one overides the preceeding one in relation to any amendments or clauses therein.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
yes point taken foggy,but when i was at the proposal stage i was told to read my proposal and then read it again and only sign if i understood and agreed to what it was proposing.i have the 50/50 on overtime and it was written into my proposal.if i were poppy6 and it is not written into there proposal i would deem it an absolute con for them to forget to write it in then try and retro write what i had signed and agreed to.
how many companys work in this fasion?
from my point of veiw im glad i got it in as i would have fought tooth and nail for them to try and move the goalposts once its started.as far as i can see they (the iva company) ballesd the proposal up at the start and are now trying to make it good
Last edited by back on track on Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cc received 6th January 2014 now upwards and onwards
I know where you are coming from Back on Track, but, without actually reading all of the paperwork myself I couldn't guess the situation in Poppy's case, I am afraid that will have to be between her and her IP.
As for moving goalposts, despite it not being technically possible, I have seen numerous ocassions where this happens. I am afraid the IP, at the end of the day, holds all the cards, and quite often threatens to play the "We will fail your IVA card".
This, of course, is where this forum is a great help if found early enough, to help sort the wheat from the chaff.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
Foggy - it's usually the creditors who hold all the cards - the IP just follows instructions.
Sharing from experiences of dealing with debt
The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively.
Bob Marley. http://kallis3.blogs.iva.co.uk
You'd think so, Jan. But I have seen IP's (from less reputable companies I might add) bullying clients this way. I ackowledge that some IP's allow the creditors to pull their strings a little too much, and they do move goalposts, in the name of the creditors. However, the better IP's will not allow even the creditors to overstep the agreed terms.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
All IVA proposals have terms and conditions. They form part of the contract and IPs must make sure their clients fully understand everything contained therein before committing to signing the documents.
I'd be happy to take a look at your proposal Poppy if you feel that would be helpful.
