took me 5 months to build up the courage to post

[rob.m]

I've just spent an hour or so reading the forum and have read some very distressing accounts of people in debt - often caused by self-confessed folly but more often than not the attitude of banks etc.

What I cannot accept is people complaining that they MUST HAVE their Horse its £150/month bill, the £700 of pedigree cats and SKY TV as the daughter likes watching it.

Come on people, GET REAL !!

I can completely understand people trying their utmost to rid themselves of crippling debts, but some of you are "taking the p".

Sell the horse and allocate the money to the people you agreed to borrow from - the same with the cats and Sky TV.

Im not in debt but I cant afford these things - so have a bit of self-respect and admit you are being totally selfish here and trying to abuse a system set-up to help you.

If things like this are allowed, you will have the National Press re-direct their attacks from the money lenders to people abusing the system - then everyone will suffer.

Rant over !!

Rob

PS My step-father is in debt and Im on here trying to help him, so I do understand the problems being in debt brings.

[Adam Davies]

Hi Rob
All views are welcome but you must remember that this is a forum for help and support.Some people will feel that a horse is important and may well make a sacrifice in another area to support that cost.
Sky tv can be the only enjoyment for people who are in an IVA as there is no spare money for "treats"etc.
Finally anybody that tries to address their debt problems via an IVA or bankruptcy are not selfish,they are insolvent and are unable to pay their debts.
Regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp

[rob.m]

Im sorry but there is no way you can justify the cost of a horse and £150/month upkeep.

Surely the point of an IVA is to clear your debts and leave you with enough for the essentials in life whilst making payments.

How can you deduct £150/month from those "essentials" to pay for the upkeep of a horse.

That would be like me starting an IVA and going on a cruise each year with the £1800 - sorry, but if you have that much spare you have too many "essentials".

Regarding Sky - there are many many people who cant afford Sky TV. We manage with the terrestrial channels and might upgrade to a freeview box when the money has been saved. I believe if you already have the Sky set-up, you can get 200+ TV channels for free anyway.

I appreciate people are on the forum for help and support, but it's about time the very small minority were told very plain and clear that they are "out of touch" with what responsible budgeting is all about - it is these people who are never going to benefit from the huge advantage of having an IVA when they finally reach the end of it - they will be in debt shortly after and will again expect to be bailed out of it.

Ive already said that I understand many of the issues people have experienced on here.

If the IPs on here believe this practice is perfectly OK then I can fully understand the likes of Northern Rock for not agreeing to so many IVA applications - they rightly feel people are trying to have them over.

Because this is a forum made (probably 99%) of people in debt, I don't expect too many people jumping in to agree with me - perhaps if I made the post outside the forum I would get a slightly different response from those making the sacrifices to keep paying their mortgages etc - I wonder how many have a horse?

Paul

[iva experts]

Hello rob.m/paul,

The confusion for me is that you said "I understand many of the issues people have experienced on here". Yet you mustn't have enough understanding because you fail to show any grace.

We have all made mistakes and foolish decisions.

Best Regards. IVA Experts

[rob.m]

Hi

We certainly have made mistakes and foolish decisions - the trick is to LEARN FROM THEM and ensure you don't do the same thing again.

Unless the MINORITY (as I stated) are told they're living in cloud cookoo land they will not acknowledge anything and won't change.

I honestly sympathise with some of the stories Ive read on the forum - but there is a time and place for some people to be given a wake-up call.

I seriously cannot believe so-called professional people on here are happy to acknowledge these items as being OK when the person is attempting to have a large part of their (!!!) debt written-off.

If that is the professional approach then Im afraid I have little sympathy for these people seeking the IVA escape - I will be tempted to believe they all have nice little nest-eggs tucked away from prying eyes, gained with the help of their IPs who are missrepresenting their clients true state of affairs.

Nobody is saying you should live on bread and lard whilst you pay off your IVA - in a civilised society everyone is entitled to a "life" - but not one of indulgance.

Rob

PS the Paul came from a cut/paste on some other work - sorry for confusion.

[dorset70]

It is very easy make judgements on people especially without knowing them as individuals and perhaps not stopping to think that there may be a genuine reason why they are in the situation that they are.

I am sure no-one plans to become insolvent and it is a very very difficult and stressful and worrying situation to cope with, with many options and doors closed to you, it's a catch 22 situation.

I have seriously struggled for about 9 months before finally accepting that I need to address my problems via a proposed IVA which I hope my creditors will look at fairly and consistently.

However, surely it will be down to any creditors to be able to query any amounts of expenditure that they see as not acceptable? (Please correct me if I am wrong on this). As after all they are the creditors to whom the person proposing the IVA owes the money to and have the most right to query expenditure which to one person may seem ridiculous but to another essential.

[Adam Davies]

Rob
I think that you will find most people who enter an IVA are on a very tight budget that has been agreed by the creditors and not the IPs.
I do not recall NR rejecting a proposal because of expenditure,it is very often due to the fact that they feel that they can get a better return outside of an IVA over a longer term.
Finally,the "IPS on here" have one of the highest success rates in the Uk regarding IVAs so I would suggest that the creditors do not feel that they are being "had over"
regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp

[rob.m]

Sorry - I was getting a tad over excited in my reply.

Of course nobody aims to become insolvent - the majority get there by accident or pure bad luck whilst some are just useless with money and budgeting.

My main gripe with the horse thing is that any sensible person would be looking to reduce their outgoings BEFORE getting to the IVA stage.

If the horse is still there when they approach an IP, it would be sensible (and good financial advice) to advise that the horse went. By all means loan it to someone until you are back on your feet and can afford it.

Finally - and I sincerely hope this happens - it is down to the Creditors to firmly say NO.

Do you honestly think that the people paying their loans (which include costs for IVA losses) would be happy for this person to keep the horse ?

I should make a quick apology to the person with the horse as you are the focus of my irritation - Im not having a go at you personally. Im irritated by ANYONE who thinks these luxuries are OK in conjunction with their IVA.

Rob

PS For anyone going thru the IVA process at the moment, then good luck - but please don't take the P.

[monday s expert]

Rob/Paul

Thanks for your opinion BUT I stress as somebody that has been in an IVA for nearly 2 years - it aint easy and I feel that at least (if not all) 95% of people on an IVA would rather not be that situation.

What would you rather do, put them in debtors prison until somebody pays to get them out.

The Govt put the legistlation in place as a safety net - rather than stop people lending money under very rigid rules that could effect the economy.

A few year s ago we all hadn't "spent on the high street" this country would have gone into recession.

Do you think it fair that a comapny can Buy my debt for less than 10p in the pound but not allow me to pay it out for less that 25p in the pound. They would rather I go bankrupt.

I think that what you have highlighted has shown the wide varying degrees of things that some IP'/creditors have allowed while others have said no.

Monday's Expert

[mick.i]

Rob,

Your step-father must be delighted to have you fighting his corner...

Well done for being so perfect.

[monday s expert]

For the record - SKY is a cheap form of entertainment - and can work out cheaper per month than DVD's and or as a family going to the cinema. I would have it in my budget if it was allowed.

A possible compromise could be that you have to cut back to the base package and/or give it up for a year " to feel the pain" and then be allowed to get it back towards the end of the IVA?

_ M Exp

[Adam Davies]

Rob
They may well say no but we are not talking about a sports car or a caravan by the sea,this is probably a much loved animal that has become part of the family.
The problem with selling the horse prior to the IVA is that there is no guarantee that the IVA will be accepted and as Melanie has already stated the horse will be allowed in bankruptcy,and this could well be the alternative to an IVA for this particular poster.
I,m glad you,ve calmed down a bit and to be honest I can see where you are coming from but believe me anybody who enters an IVA is in for a very tough five years not only them but for their family and it,s in everybodies interest that the IVA succeeds as it returns a far better dividend to the creditors than bankruptcy and this can only be a good thing for people who,as you say,pay their loans as it keeps the APRs low.
Regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp

[jane.l]

The "person" who made this post sounds VERY similar in attitude to the other so-called ex-friend of mine who went on a forum to be awful and spiteful to me! Well, whatever "he" says, I WILL NOT let it upset me this time, yes I am in debt, it is not something I am proud of, I would have loved to sell my house, buy the cheaper one and try to continue scrimping to pay all my debts for the next 25 years, but it is one of the creditors who will not allow a sale, so we are stuck and have no choice now but bankruptcy!

I agree my cats were an extravagent purchase, but I got them 3 years ago, I did not imagine that I would ever be in financial trouble but it could happen to anyone, it is something that has just crept up on us over the years and I had a change of job to a temporary one, no-one knows whats around the next corner, debt can happen to anyone!

There is no way I would get rid of my cats, they are part of the family and the children would be heartbroken, (they have been through enough) I would starve myself in order to afford to keep my pets!

[Edwina]

Hi Andy

I have not had the benefit of reading the original and therefore do not understand the fuller facts of the case. However with regard to keeping a horse, and that it has been stated by Melanie that in bankruptcy a horse would be permitted to keep. I would question this as a horse surely would be classed as an asset and therefore not allowable to be kept outside of a bankruptcy. In addition I feel that for someone proposing an IVA it would be an onerous issue, as the £150 per month that is stated for keeping the horse would be deemed by creditors as to be an unecessary luxury and would look for that £150 per month to be made available for the VA.

Edwina

Rob
They may well say no but we are not talking about a sports car or a caravan by the sea,this is probably a much loved animal that has become part of the family.
The problem with selling the horse prior to the IVA is that there is no guarantee that the IVA will be accepted and as Melanie has already stated the horse will be allowed in bankruptcy,and this could well be the alternative to an IVA for this particular poster.
I,m glad you,ve calmed down a bit and to be honest I can see where you are coming from but believe me anybody who enters an IVA is in for a very tough five years not only them but for their family and it,s in everybodies interest that the IVA succeeds as it returns a far better dividend to the creditors than bankruptcy and this can only be a good thing for people who,as you say,pay their loans as it keeps the APRs low.
Regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp

[rob.m]

1) I think I suggested loaning the horse to a friend until person was "back on their feet" and could afford the £150/month. I didn't suggest selling it.

2) My c70 year old stepfather will be given the facts on IVAs (and DMPs) and I can sit down with him and read the forms before he makes the next step. He has got himself into a mess and accepts this. He doesn't have any luxuries (well £2/week at the bookies).

3) One would hope they are already "feelin the pain" before going for an IVA. BTW my local library rents DVDs for 50p/£1.

4) Govt put scheme in place as a safety net. Great idea if used as intended to help people in dire financial situation.

I'm sorry that people are blind to what Im trying to get across.

You are confusing my attitude toward excess as being anti-IVA.

Im really amazed at how many people think the example given is an allowable expense.

Rob

PS I think Ive made my point and realise that Im talking to the wall. I will infact post some of your replies on another forum and will be interested in the replies. Do you think people "outside" the IVA World will share you views?