CCCS&Payplan expenses guideline 2007

[Adam Davies]

Hi
Below are the figures that most creditors will view as acceptable expenditure,according to the CCCS and Payplan.All are monthly and Payplans seem fixed whilst CCCS have a min and max figure,with a guideline figure that I have shown.

HOUSEKEEPING; PP = £180 first adult[£200 for London],£140 second adult,£100 each child over 13 and £80 each child under 13
CCCS = £140 single adult,£240 couple with £62 per child

My thoughts are that under the CCCS a famly of 2A and 2C under 13 will be allowed £364 whereas under Payplan it will be £480,a big difference.

CLOTHES/SHOES; PP = £20 per person
CCCS = £33 for a couple and £10 each for children

My thoughts are that it seems fair,both amounts are similar.

TELEPHONES INC MOBILES/INTERNET; PP = £40 TO COVER ALL
CCCS = £55 plus £5 per child

My thoughts are that PayPlans are too low

MEDICAL/DENTAL/GLASSES; PP = £15-£25
CCCS = £24

My thoughts are that they are fair,unless you have a medical condition and this should be highlighted by your IP

PETS&INSURANCE; PP = £25
CCCS = £20

My thoughts are that this is very tight as Pet insurance costs about £10 leaving very little for food and annual vaccinations etc

SMOKING; PP = Nil
CCCS = IP to comment on amount put down

CHILDS POCKET MONEY; PP = Nil
CCCS = £10 Per child

My view is that PP need to allow for this.

SPORTS/HOBBIES&ENTERTAINMENT; PP = Nil
CCCS = £20 per couple and £10 each child

My thoughts are that PP are unreasonable in not allowing anything.


As the protocol that the banks are working towards will see the CCCS guidelines used it seems that we are going in the right direction.Payplan clearly need to update their allowances,it's no wonder that many DMPs to not go the course !!

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp

[Skippy]

For what it's worth I've added my opinion!

Hi
Below are the figures that most creditors will view as acceptable expenditure,according to the CCCS and Payplan.All are monthly and Payplans seem fixed whilst CCCS have a min and max figure,with a guideline figure that I have shown.

HOUSEKEEPING; PP = £180 first adult[£200 for London],£140 second adult,£100 each child over 13 and £80 each child under 13
CCCS = £140 single adult,£240 couple with £62 per child

My thoughts are that under the CCCS a famly of 2A and 2C under 13 will be allowed £364 whereas under Payplan it will be £480,a big difference.

**CCCS seems quite low, and surely they should allow for living in London?

CLOTHES/SHOES; PP = £20 per person
CCCS = £33 for a couple and £10 each for children

My thoughts are that it seems fair,both amounts are similar.

**£20 seems quite low when you think you have to include work clothes, shoes, coats etc.

TELEPHONES INC MOBILES/INTERNET; PP = £40 TO COVER ALL
CCCS = £55 plus £5 per child

My thoughts are that PayPlans are too low

**I agree Andy, Payplan's figure seems very low.

MEDICAL/DENTAL/GLASSES; PP = £15-£25
CCCS = £24

My thoughts are that they are fair,unless you have a medical condition and this should be highlighted by your IP

**This one needs to be flexible as everyone's circumstances are different. For example I wear contact lenses which cost £22 a month and I still need to save for glasses and the dentist. Also a lot of people can't get an NHS dentist so their costs will be a lot higher.

PETS&INSURANCE; PP = £25
CCCS = £20

My thoughts are that this is very tight as Pet insurance costs about £10 leaving very little for food and annual vaccinations etc

**This is low as after all pets are part of the family.

SMOKING; PP = Nil
CCCS = IP to comment on amount put down

**I don't think that there should be any allowance for smoking as it would improve people's health!

CHILDS POCKET MONEY; PP = Nil
CCCS = £10 Per child

My view is that PP need to allow for this.

**It depends on the age of the child. If they are old enough to get a Saturday job then perhaps it shouldn't be allowed.

SPORTS/HOBBIES&ENTERTAINMENT; PP = Nil
CCCS = £20 per couple and £10 each child

My thoughts are that PP are unreasonable in not allowing anything.

**It's unreasonable to expect people to have no social life for 5 years - it might mean that less IVA's fail.


As the protocol that the banks are working towards will see the CCCS guidelines used it seems that we are going in the right direction.Payplan clearly need to update their allowances,it's no wonder that many DMPs to not go the course !!

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp

Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is the present - a gift to make the most of.

View my blog at http://skippy13.blogs.iva.co.uk/

[Skipper]

The House keeping budget is the most inportant here.CCC is really tight on this.

My House keeping budget is along PP's values. £180 for a person. Thank god the IVA firm I am with didn't use the CCCs house keeping budget.

<<My motto:I am proud of black culture and is against racist bigotry>

[Skippy]

My housekeeping budget (in BR) is £350 per month for 2 adults.

Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is the present - a gift to make the most of.

View my blog at http://skippy13.blogs.iva.co.uk/

[Adam Davies]

Hi
CCCS £240 per couple and in Bankruptcy £350
How can they be so far out ?
CCCS have got to re look at this figue,even the max figure is only £295
What guide lines do the ORs use ?
Regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp

[Skippy]

It's not that far off the Payplan figures, which would be £320 or £340 for living in London.

I did think I'd have to justify why it was high, but it wasn't queried. I'm about to send back my IPOQ so I'm hoping they don't query it this time.



Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is the present - a gift to make the most of.

View my blog at http://skippy13.blogs.iva.co.uk/

[Adam Davies]

Hi Skippy
Isn't the world of insolvency complicated !!
So difficult to ever give a dinitive answer to a question because there seems to be so much variance around
Regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp

[Skippy]

Definitely! I'm worried at the moment about the IPOQ in case someone else looks at it differently to the original person!

Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, today is the present - a gift to make the most of.

View my blog at http://skippy13.blogs.iva.co.uk/

[MelanieGiles]

You can see why we are having to spend so much time on this at the moment! Creditors meetings have never been more difficult to get through, and the number of conflicting modifications from creditor representatives are ridiculously tedious - if only they would READ the proposals.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
http://www.melaniegiles.com/ivaEnquiry.asp

See customer feedback at:
http://www.iva.com/iva_companies/IVA_Advice_Bureau.asp

[pixie]

Thanks Andy,
When I wanted to increase my expenses to a more reasonable level I was told they were set at 'national guidelines' They never did tell me where they found them!
From looking through the list though, the majority of mine are set lower than both pp and cccs even after review.
The figures should vary according to the length of the repayment plan as well. A short term dmp is different to a long term iva.
Whoever dreams these figures up should try living in the real world!

Pixie

[Andrew Graveson]

Are these figures publicly available from Payplan or CCCS?

If not, why not?

Andrew Graveson
Mortgage Broker & Bright Oak Debt Management
andrew@brightoak.co.uk
www.brightoak.co.uk

[MelanieGiles]

I tried to locate them publicly and failed, but have recently received a copy from a friendly creditor, and they do make for interesting reading.

I find them very harsh on single persons and couples without children, but more generous with families of two or more children, due to the child multipliers. In 1997, when I started doing IVA's we worked on the basis of £150 for a single person, £220 for a married couple and £110 for each child for housekeeping, between £50 and £100 for clothing, always £50 for miscellaneous, and these were acceptable by creditors then.

Seems we are going backwards with no account for inflation, and I really would love to know where the source data for such figures is, as the OR in bankruptcies does not seem to work to the same guidelines.

At the end of the day, both CCCS and Payplan are commercial organisations, but the influence they seem to have with creditors is incredible. In my opinion, it is time for HMG to step in an give some guidance as to acceptable levels, if we have to work with benchmarked expenditure rather than actual.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
http://www.melaniegiles.com/ivaEnquiry.asp

See customer feedback at:
http://www.iva.com/iva_companies/IVA_Advice_Bureau.asp

[Andrew Graveson]

I too received copies from an interested person.

If the figures are fair and reasonable why are they not put into the public domain?

If they are not fair and reasonable why would the industry wish to adopt them?

Irrespective of fairness or whether they are reasonable, if they are to be adopted as a standard by which the British public should be judged perhaps they should be produced by a church wider than two organisations that are creditor-funded?



Andrew Graveson
Mortgage Broker & Bright Oak Debt Management
andrew@brightoak.co.uk
www.brightoak.co.uk

[MelanieGiles]

The Insolvency Service needs to look at this and the sooner the better so far as I am aware. They have their own guidelines used in bankruptcy cases, and it would be interesting to get a copy of these to compare to the CCCS model. As a professional who is required to at all times give best advice to clients, that can be very difficult in today's climate, and it is no wonder that outfits like the IVAC and bankruptcy itself are gaining in popularity.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
http://www.melaniegiles.com/ivaEnquiry.asp

See customer feedback at:
http://www.iva.com/iva_companies/IVA_Advice_Bureau.asp

[cr15py]

My IP has said that £200 housekeeping and £45 clothing per month should be OK - just for information if it helps!!