Hi
Andrew makes a very good point.
Many people never get to speak with an Insovency Practitioners at the initial stage,indeed I doubt that many people would have the confidence to insist that they do so.
It is the front end staff in each organisation that are the key,as the initial advice is the most important.
A certain,audited level of knowledge should be attained before being able to give advice.
This is where we need some formal regulation.
Regards
Going back 2 years ago i was in a similiar situation to you, I had a house but no equity, In the end i decided to sell the house i went in to an IVA, at the time i felt it was the right thing to do, and becuase i stand by the fact that at the time it was the right thing to do i have no regrets, But if i knew now hat i knew then i would of gone BR, because you have no equity you have nothing to loose, the disposable income would be more, and in the worst case you would only have to pay in to it for 3 years, bu then do you want to pay as much back as you can.
As meliane said you have to do what you feel right is for you.
If you want to know further how i felt and what i went through with it been similiar to you, please ask
Only a qualified mortgage broker can give "advice". Anyone else doing so is commiting an offence.
In the debt industry anyone can give advice provided that they're covered by the firm's Consumer Credit Licence or Insolvency Professional Body.
The consequences of poor advice are potentially more devastating where debt advice is provided compared to mortgages.
This point applies equally to IP firms and DMP firms. As this is the case surely the advice "call an IP" is really risky; as Andy says how many people really speak with an IP at the advice stage?
A range of advice (and seeking advice from companies of whatever discipline you have reason to have confidence in) must be the right advice?
Andrew Graveson
Bright Oak Ltd
UK Debt Management Company
Website: www.brightoak.co.uk
To answer Andy's post, I would refer him to some of the posts previously made by David as to The Debt Resolution Forum. Whilst not pretending that this is the answer to all ills, it does seek to establish a certain level of quantifiable expertise by way of having to be able to demonstrate product knowledge on a number of areas before an advisor can, in effect, advise. If you accept that there are 8 choices that the normal individual (I don't propose to address the more complex cases here for ease of convenience) can make, then it also follows that any debt advisor for any reputable company should be able to at least give a balanced view on each and then let the client make his or her own decision before they proceed.
That doesn't mean that they need a Cemap qualification so that they can advise for example on remortgages, but they should be able to spot a case where somebody with a Cemap qualification may be better placed to help that individual. Again, it generally doesn't need an IP to spot an IVA case, but as it is unrealistic to expect IP's to talk to clients at the initial contact in most cases due to their heavy workload, it is also fair to suggest that their staff, whether it be me at Cleardebt, or any other staff member at the other firms on here should at the very least have an in depth working knowledge.
The DRF is looking to introduce a qualification to standardise this, and it is good news that many of the leading players in this field, including many firms that do not post on here, have indicated that they will sign up to this.
Regards.
Cert DR
23+ years in debt advice
I do not post for anyone other than myself
And I think another point you need to consider is that people, like myself, who are facing these agonising decisions take EVERY OUNCE of courage to contact someone for help, be it CCCS or PayPlan or whoever they feel can help them best. Having to go through all that again if/when they feel that advice isn't helpful or may not be the best possible solution is not an easy step and I doubt that a lot of people will have the courage or emotional strength to actually go through it all over again. And I think (and these are obviously my personal thoughts) that is why so many people end up acting on advice that doesn't necessarily suit their situation.
Having to go through the list of creditors and invest a lot of time in further discussions of how the situation arose can just be too daunting for a lot of people.
Being in debt is somthing most people feel ashamed about, and actually many try work it out on their own for years before admitting defeat (as I did) so I'm not sure how many people would willingly seek out further advice even if its in their best interest to do so. I think forums like this are really helpful for all of those reasons.
Although having said that, my advice from PayPlan wasn't great but I do have a friend who is in an IVA and got excellent help and advice (I'm not sure who she used) and another who is a discharged bankrupt who was also given excellent advice so there are still some good people out there helping those who can't meet their payments.
It is a well known fact that the vast majority of people choose the first advisory firm that they speak to probably for the reasons discussed by Sallya above.
Excellent point sallya about having the courage to go through these things with people who are, after all, strangers. It is an easy thing, from a professional perspective, to sometimes forget this issue so it does us no harm at all to be reminded of it every so often.
Regards.
Cert DR
23+ years in debt advice
I do not post for anyone other than myself
Well I have done it! I have just got home after spending hours in my county court - mostly just waiting around! I am officially bankrupt now and to be honest, its a relief.
The things I knew but are worth saying again... it's a serious as I thought it was going to be! Its a big deal and I'm glad I spent so much time researching all my options. And its not as scary as I thought it would be, even though people had told me that it's not a frightening experience!
Obviously the district judge has seen it all, and in my case he agreed that I was doing the right thing. I did get a little bit of a frown from him because 1) I am a financial analyst (who can't look after her own money) and 2) I work for a top 20 law firm and didn't seek advice from the hundreds of qualified lawyers at my "disposal". However, as you all will know, most people will go to the ends of the earth and back before bringing their personal financial issues into the work place.
The judge did also say he was staggered at how many people are mis-advised, and I'll say it again, thats why all of your advice and time and commitment to forums like this are soooo invaluable. And so greatly appreciated.
I have been told that the OR will contact me within 2 working days, and I hope that is the case as it proves that the courts have a very efficient process in place. More waiting would just be torture.
I feel lucky (although I didn't 2 days ago) as things are now falling into place and I am ready to get back on my feet again. I can't deny its been emotionally draining, but perhaps for the first time in longer than I can remember I will actually be able to sleep soundly!
I will keep you all updated to share my experience with the OR and anything else I have to face in the near future!
I really am very grateful to you all! Thank you so very much
I spent more time with the district judge than anyone else who was there today. Largely because i work for a law firm that he is very familiar with, but in that time he gave me a lot of great advice about how to handle creditors who continue to persue me, and the threatening letters etc.
I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but I've read other forums where people are asking advice about letters they have recieved from debt collectors stating that someone will be visiting at XXtime on XXday! I've had many of them over the last year. The judge informed me today that those types of debt collections are actually illegal! As I said to him, unfortunately the average person doesn't know that and the scare tactics can work! He really was appalled at how people in debt are treated. The industry standard is set that you should be dealt with in a caring and considerate way as debt is a difficult thing to deal with. Again, not something the average person knows.
There were 6 people at the court today filing bankruptcy. I only spoke to two of them, but one may sticks in my mind because he was scared to death. Even after having paid the money and seen the judge he still didn't know if he was doing the right thing because he had been so mis-informed.
This man literally had lost everything, his home, his car and is on a very basic income but was still being advised that he should not go bankrupt. In my (limited) experience, he was the perfect candidate for bankruptcy if he really had nothing! Why would someone want him to try and make monthly repayment offers to creditors when he could barely afford rent. I ended up talking to him for a long time after we got our documentation and I think he made the right decision but with little or no support (like the support I've had on this forum) he just needed re-assurance, and I feel that should have come from his debt advisors rather than him filing for bankruptcy because he was at his wits end! At least he found some comfort in talking to me, firstly - he's not alone and not the first! and secondly, I have months of research on my side and he had none!
There is so much information available, I'm just not sure how to get it out to people who don't have access to the internet! And until that can happen I think there will still be a lot of very unsure confused people potentially doing the wrong thing for their circumstances.
What a helpful post Sallya, which will be useful to anyone contemplating bankruptcy as an option. You clearly have the advantage, being in the legal profession, and it is eyeopening to see that people are still getting misinformation and are confused about the process.
I think that the changes currently under discussion for the bankruptcy regime will be very welcome, which seek to make it more process oriented and less reliant upon the Courts - which for all of us can be a scary place - personally I hate going, but have to as part of the job.
I cant imagine how difficult your job is Melanie, it must be heart wrenching to be seeing debt destroyed people day in day out! But I hope that when you see them get their lives back (as debt really does take everything away from you, including the joy of actually living) you get some solace from that. And you are right, the courts are not nice places but I think they need to be seen as severe in order for people to really understand the seriousness of why they are there (even if it's for a completely different reason to why I was there).
What I realised today was that people seem to be morally ashamed (understandably) of having to declare themselves bankrupt. Whereas if its a business that has failed no-one would blink an eye as in all reality many millionaires have to try and fail several times to become sucessful. But maybe the stigma is not 100% right. Making a bad business decision is not that far removed from making a bad personal decision in terms of finance.
While I dont think that bankruptcy (or an IVA or any other solution) should be "easy" (as this defeats the object, in reality yes, we owe money and that shouldn't be dismissed too easily or everyone would run up as much debt as they could and then look for an easy way out) I do think that people shouldn't be afraid of making their choice in a debt solution. Having been scared for months or years etc about the actual debt, facing up to it should not feel like a "fatal" decision but instead should feel like a positive step in the right direction (and I'm not sure how this can be achieved as its a very formal process). I do know some people who have felt that the support they have had from their IP or whoever they've dealt with has seemed more supportive than formal, but largely I think thats the minority (until a relationship has been formed with the IP). The process has to stay formal in the sense that gathering the information and deciding how to deal with the creditors needs to be very precise but I wonder if there is a way to make insolvent person/business feel more comfortable in reaching out for legal suppport when and if things get to this stage. Its something I will think about, and I doubt I'll have any answers to how to make debt less scary for people as I know this is something that has been discussed for many years, but hopefully out of my experience I may be able to work out what I felt and why and then also what would have made it less daunting for me.
The other thing that has also come to mind in the last few days is why was I so scared about contacting my creditors when I first had financial difficulty. Although I was actually much more proactive than many people I have spoken to I took the decision not to speak to anyone but deal with everything in writing. However, although this is good in the sense of having a good trail of conversations, I have found (after my recent discussions with NR re: mortgage arrears) you can get more positive results if you speak to them in person. This shouldn't really be the case but I'm going to try and think back to why I felt that I wasn't able to call and had to write letters. This (stigma/fear or whatever emotion or perhaps pride?) could be related to why people are scared to talk to IP's or debt advisors.
Obviously bankruptcy SHOULD BE daunting, but the process in the stages before deciding bankruptcy shound't be. I don't think the IP's or debt advice lines are at fault at all, largely speaking I feel that everyone is very sympathetic and understanding and deals with every case with the personal and individual attention it deservers.
However, the process of getting the debtor to a) face up to the debts and b) admit they need help and finally c) getting access to information outside of what they have been advised may not be something that anyone can change but I wonder if there is more we could do to stop people losing everything before they are ready to talk to someone?
This is such a complicated area because the law is quite rigid (and rightly so otherwise we would never know where we stand) but can come across as being very confusing.
I'm not sure where I am going to go with this, but I certainly will try to properly document my experience with annotations of what may have made things better for me in the hope that something useful comes out of that for the sake of current/future people struggling with debt and how things can be made easier for them to face up to their situation. However, I do admit the age old story of you wont get help until you ask for it and its the asking that people struggle with.
You are definately right about the difference between personal insolvency and corporate business failure. I am an insolvency practitioner who deals with both sides, and when I am interviewing directors of companies, there clearly is a lesser emotional effect that when I see individual clients about their financial difficulties.
There is also still a big stimga about bankruptcy proceedings which, after all, are there as a sanctuary for troubled individuals to avail of if they cannot see a way out of repaying their debts. All too often clients tell me that they feel they will be punished for getting into financial trouble, whereas in reality - as you have seen today - the Courts are actually quite sympathetic. 80% of people get into difficulty due to circumstances outside of their control - redundancy, marital difficulty, childbirth and often simply bad luck - and most people do not borrow money with the full intention of not paying it back.
I am sure that you will soon put your own difficulties behind you and move on in a positive manner free from burdonsome debt. But please do stay around on the forum to share your experiences with others - believe me the things that you can say and share will be 10 times more valuable to other posters than listening to me and the other IPs who post on the forum.
