I agree and it could lead to a recipe for disaster!
Regards, David Mond, Insolvency Practitioner for over 46 years. Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year 2012, Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year finalist 2013 & 2014 awarded by Insolvency & Rescue Magazine and 2015 finalist for Personal Insolvency Firm of the Year.
That protocol clause quoted is contradictory - in that is says payslips and bankstatements, and then bank statements in the absence of payslips. Just payslips are fine with me. We rarely ask for bank statements as we trust our clients to provide us with accurate information.
Melanie I don't think it is contradictory and it is there for protection of the IP as well as the client. Creditors expect us as IP's to do what we sign up to do in Protocol compliant IVA's. What it is saying is payslips and bank statements. It re-iterates that if there are no payslips then bank statements should be checked. To me that is only re-emphasing. Why allow a client to temptation by not asking for them, and what is the problem in asking for them anyway?
Regards, David Mond, Insolvency Practitioner for over 46 years. Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year 2012, Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year finalist 2013 & 2014 awarded by Insolvency & Rescue Magazine and 2015 finalist for Personal Insolvency Firm of the Year.
I think that shows a lack of trust in the clients. OK, the odd one or two might be tempted, but you will always get the exception.
I agree with Melanie that you should trust your clients to give you truthful information.
Sharing from experiences of dealing with debt
The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively.
Bob Marley. http://kallis3.blogs.iva.co.uk
As I said earlier there is some flavour of disagreement between IP's. It is not as though there is anything to hide on the bank statements it is simply my wife feels that it is an invasion of her privacy, I actually agree with her.
However the bank statements and her payslips are winging there way to my IP and lets hope thats it for another year. We both hope that her overtime and hard work will not be wasted.
They shouldn't be. Her overtime is her own and not part of your IVA.
Sharing from experiences of dealing with debt
The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires, but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively.
Bob Marley. http://kallis3.blogs.iva.co.uk
I agree that there has to be an element of trust between the IP and his/her client.
But if the protocol states that the IP should examine bank statements it is only referring to the person who is in the IVA.
The problem is with a spouse or partner who is not in the IVA and whilst that other person has to "contribute" to their fair share of the household expenses - how is an IP expected to do his due diligence work without seeing evidence.
Whilst there has to be a degree of trust - how is an IP expected to know what the non IVA partner's income is without proof?
Difficult call and whilst respecting private information it does make it difficult on the IP if one partner refuses on grounds of confidentiality. All said and done the information is only going to be seen by the IP (and his/her stafff) and is not available to the outside world - I ask " what is the real problem then?"
Last edited by David Mond on Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Regards, David Mond, Insolvency Practitioner for over 46 years. Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year 2012, Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year finalist 2013 & 2014 awarded by Insolvency & Rescue Magazine and 2015 finalist for Personal Insolvency Firm of the Year.
David, I am slightly concerned regarding your remarks "what's the problem" Only today I read that expenses claims from MPs is up for sale for £200,000! I guess the staff working for IP's are not 100% vetted and have CRB Checks??? they are probably not that well paid and in the majority have no formal qualifications.
How do we know that confidential information like bank statements are kept "confidential" they do of course contain bank account names, sort codes, addresses etc. It only needs one rogue IP worker to collate and pass on to an undesirable. I think my wife was quite right in objecting to an invasion of her privacy. However as previously stated copies have now gone.
The issue here is not about the wife's wage slips but her bank statements. I agree that IP firms need to verify what income is coming into the house but we have no right to investigate what the non insolvent spouse does with her own money. I would not hand over my personal information to a third party with whom I have no agreement or obligation.
If the non insolvent spouse refuses to supply her personal information as she is perfectly entitled to do, under protocol does the IVA be failed for non compliance?
David - the clause you refer to in the protocol (which I still maintain is contradictory but we will probably not agree on that point!) relates to pre-insolvency verification work to be carried out by the IP and not annual reviews which is what this poster is enquiring about.
My personal view - and that of the regulators who recently attended my office for a routine inspection - is that wageslips alone for the debtor are an acceptable method for ongoing verification of the debtor's income.
Given that there is a difference of opinion now amongst three firms who are all in the top 15 firms (on volume only), I suggest that this point be added to the ever growing list of things to be discussed at your next Standing Committee meeting.
And perhaps a sample questionnare could be issued to IPs with the top 20 firms to see how they interpret various areas of the IVA protocol which may be viewed to be ambiguous - such as this example and the basis for remortgage in the final year to name but two. Differing interpretations are not helpful in an area which was supposed to bring consistency to our work.
Personally, if my OH was in an IVA I would be prepared to send a wage slip so the IP could see my income, but nothing more as I don't see why anyone should be able to look at my bank statements and see what I'm spending my money on. My OH doesn't see my bank statements, so why should anyone else someone I don't know see them?
Last edited by Skippy on Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks Melanie I stand corrected and the clauses that I provided do refer to the initial proposal.
However clause 10.1 of the Protocol states:
The IVA provider should ensure that they are provided with copies of payslips (or other supporting evidence) every 12 months. The supervisor is required to review the debtor's income and expenditure once in every 12 months. The debtor will be required to increase his monthly contribution by 50% of any net surplus one month following such review. The supervisor will also be able to reduce the dividend by up to 15% in total relative to the original proposal (without referring back to creditors), to reflect changes in income and expenditure.
Other supporting evidence ? Bank Statements of partner ?
I am not saying yes BUT you are right and I have added the point for the next Technical Sub Committee Meeting to discuss.
Regards, David Mond, Insolvency Practitioner for over 46 years. Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year 2012, Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year finalist 2013 & 2014 awarded by Insolvency & Rescue Magazine and 2015 finalist for Personal Insolvency Firm of the Year.
David - I don't wish to be pedantic, but the use of the word or in the clause you refer to means either/or. So I am sorry but I interpret this as wageslips are sufficient.
It would be great to clarify this point for the benefit of our clients and this forum. Given that we are now one year into the use of the Protocol - which I have fully supported from Day 1 - we are bound to be looking at the wording from a more practical point of view as we work through the issues contained therein - and as I have always maintained on this forum good debate is healthy!
Good debate is of tremendous value and I agree if wage slips are not available then Bank Statements are a good substitute.
What bothers me though is how do you account for an unscrupulous client that does some "moonlighting" or a second job and has that income paid into a partner's or spouses bank account?
Regards, David Mond, Insolvency Practitioner for over 46 years. Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year 2012, Personal Insolvency Practitioner of the year finalist 2013 & 2014 awarded by Insolvency & Rescue Magazine and 2015 finalist for Personal Insolvency Firm of the Year.
