Please can someone help me. We currently made our FINAL payment on 24 Nov 2012 of our IVA. We are one of the many people who's certificate of closure has been delayed. We are being told by GT that this will be delayed until we sign a consent form to a variation in our original t's & c's to enable GT to investigate any mis-sold PPI. GT can have every penny of it quite frankly - but I am very scared as I have got the impression signing this would be ambiguous and would potentially give GT a claim to ANY windfall we may happen to receive between now and the time they issue us a certificate! GT have threatened that if we do not agree to sign we will be in breach of our IVA.... which sounds very intimidating... EVEN THOUGH WE HONOURED OUR SIDE OF THE IVA CONTRACT AND COMPLETED ALL PAYMENTS!!! We, as many legal experts have advised, believe GT to be acting extremely unethically. We would like to know if we give consent to the PPI investigation - can we also request a guarantee from GT that any FUTURE windfall would not be seen as an asset...due to us already completing our final payment in Nov 2012??? HELP PLEASE.. VERY SCARED!!!
I think you will find that any windfalls received between your last payment and receiving your completion certificate can be captured by the IVA. Bit of a bummer, but I don't think that's particular to Grant Thornton.
Thanks for that. But do you know whether or not we are correct in saying GT are practising unethically by withholding our closure certificate for as long as suits them?? Would the Office of Fair Trading look into this perhaps?
Hi rbc1010. Welcome to the forum. As Sensible77 says, they can already do so anyway whilst it remains open. Some IP's have assured clients that they won't claim windfalls, but PPI is in the main deemed to be an asset. IP's are saying they have an obligation to realise assets for the benefit of creditors - hence needing to explore any miss-selling. As stated on a previous post today (apologies for repeating myself), Payplan have done the same, and Cleardebt(?), so we are waiting for our CC's. Hope this info helps. x
IVA journey started: 30th March 2009. Settled: 17th July 2012. Completion Certificate received: 13th March 2013. Breathe. x
Hi GilliB. Thanks for the nice welcome & your reply. I have actually been advised by a 'money-expert- help-line, that a 'half way house' type agreement has been suggested where the IP agrees to explore ONLY mis-sold PPI as an asset but no other potential windfalls! Have you heard of any IP's agreeing to this and maybe offering something in writing to the people in our position?? Also - do we really need to be signing an ammended version of our agreement in order for them to do the investigating, or can we agree to do it ourselves but agree to keep GT fully informed of any correspondence from our creditors?? Hope I'm making sense?? x
Not sure whether the OFT could offer any support. I would have assumed it would need to be a governing body within financial services. Would they even deem it to be unethical if the IP argued that they are fulfilling their responsibilities to the creditors. This problem has been created by unethical finance companies/banks, and pretty much left for IP's to fuddle through without any clear directives from the outset. This has left it open to varied and arbitary interpretation by IP's, so even on here, if you search back, you'll find vast differences in the client experience - depending on which company/IP they are with. I think the only real way clients will get a definitive answer is for a test case to be brought for a precedence to be set. Clients are at the mercy of the current closure process with little power to do anything else apart from lodge formal complaints on a mass scale, and see if they have any moral and ethical conscience to be bothered to change the way they treat us. Sorry to whitter on...x
IVA journey started: 30th March 2009. Settled: 17th July 2012. Completion Certificate received: 13th March 2013. Breathe. x
You raise some interesting points rbc. The reason for them seeking your authority is that your IVA cannot be varied without your permission. What they want is for you to agree they can close it, but add any PPI to benefit creditors later. That's effectively the 'halfway house agreement'. I've read previous posts where IP's have provided written confirmation that any windfalls during the closure process will be for clients to keep on full. I can't recall which company/IP, but I hope other posters may be able to clarify. Payplan have never assured me of this, and my CO said it would be a shame I'd have to pay in any windfall - after settling early with my F&F!! Really? x
IVA journey started: 30th March 2009. Settled: 17th July 2012. Completion Certificate received: 13th March 2013. Breathe. x
Thanks again. From what you tell me, through no fault of your own I'm feeling more & more intimidated by the minute! You have summed it up very well. I would be more than willing for ours to be a test case and I feel a meeting with an Insolvency lawyer may be money well worth spent. As I said, I'm more than happy for unethical practises resulting in mis-sold PPI to be explored - I will willingly give back every penny refunded to us as part of what we agreed when we took out the IVA. But I would fight tooth & nail to make sure they have no claim on any future windfalls!! PPI may take a long time to settle. How can it be right that the IP has a claim on any future 'windfall' you may receive just because it remains live for ONE reason only!! PPI !! It's just soooo wrong!!! You haven't whittered on... I have!!! Thanks again xx
The correct financial body to refer queries or complaints to is the Insolvency Practitioners Association, if you feel that your IP is acting inappropriately. The IPA have made it clear that where IPs are seeking to claim PPI monies in cases where the asset was not defined, then they must tread with caution.
I understand that GT are not necessarily demanding an asset they are not entitled to demand, but are seeking to claim that as the PPI claim was wrongly omitted from the IVA propoals - presumably both debtor and IP could be held to blame for this, but in reality neither party actually realised at that time there might be PPI to reclaim - then they want their clients to agree to accept that tbe compensation element of the claim be paid to the IVA for the benefit of creditors, with their clients being able to receive the interest element net of tax.
Creditors may not necessarily accept these modifications at the end of the day, but if you are being asked to consider whether you wish to present the variation terms, read through them carefully and ask questions of your own IPs for further clarifty - or ultimately seek legal advice. There are lots of lawyers now specialising in this area.
Hi rbc. As has been said above, during the period twixt final payment and the issue of that certificate windfalls of any type can be captured under the terms of the IVA.
However, many firms take the view that you have fulfilled your obligations and will not draw in any such windfall as any delay after your final payment is their doing, not yours. It should be noted that this is, effectively, a "gentleman's agreement".
As for PPI, many firms are asking for authorities to be signed allowing them to investigate and capture PPI after completion -- this allows them to issue that certificate and your only ongoing obligation is PPI.
GT, on the other hand, are asking for an irrevocable and perpetual authority to investigate / claim ANY assets at any time in the future. They also, it should be also noted, do capture windfalls any time up to the issue of that certificate !
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
Thank you for your time Melanie. Seeking legal advice is my next intended move as I am very scared by all of this & feel GT are pressuring us into the consent!! I have a reasonable level of intelligence but unfortunately this does not extend to understand possible 'small print clauses' which may be disguised by GT's corporate jargon. I will have to leave that to the experts and just hope that in the meantime GT do not decide that we are in breach of our IVA and petition our bankruptcy!!! Madness really when you have worked so hard for the past number of years to stick to your side of the contract!!
Thank you again.
Sorry - I didn't mean to provoke further anxiety to an already provocative situation, but it is what is is, and which many- not all are in limbo with. I hope mel's post has provided more clarity now. I've said from the outset that given the opportunity I would pay back every penny I owed, but now, purely based on the way I have been treated - hell to the no
- bar a MASSIVE lottery win!! My creditors agreed my f&f 8 months ago, based on my presenting circumstances. They have significantly worsened - along with my health since then, and I'm currently fighting to keep my roof over my head as I'm still unable to work, and been told I'm ”unemployable”. As far as I'm concerned, all parties have agreed to 'draw a line' under my debt so I can move on - which I could have done if I had my CC. It's a very sore subject for me. Every has their own personal reasons for entering an IVA, and mine is pretty unusual I think. I will write my blog when it's all finally over, and then maybe it will make more sense... I sincerely wish us all well and hope we can soon be allowed to move on and use our energies more positively. x
IVA journey started: 30th March 2009. Settled: 17th July 2012. Completion Certificate received: 13th March 2013. Breathe. x
font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:<hr height="1" noshade>Originally posted by Foggy
Hi rbc. As has been said above, during the period twixt final payment and the issue of that certificate windfalls of any type can be captured under the terms of the IVA.
However, many firms take the view that you have fulfilled your obligations and will not draw in any such windfall as any delay after your final payment is their doing, not yours. It should be noted that this is, effectively, a "gentleman's agreement".
As for PPI, many firms are asking for authorities to be signed allowing them to investigate and capture PPI after completion -- this allows them to issue that certificate and your only ongoing obligation is PPI.
GT, on the other hand, are asking for an irrevocable and perpetual authority to investigate / claim ANY assets at any time in the future. They also, it should be also noted, do capture windfalls any time up to the issue of that certificate !
Thank you Foggy - you're reply is very important to me, as are all of them of course, but you have confirmed my suspicions regarding GT's ethics. I don't suppose you are able to tell me exactly how they can or cannot treat us if we refuse to sign this authority form they are disguising as authority to investigate PPI?
Thank you.
font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:<hr height="1" noshade>Originally posted by GilliB
Sorry - I didn't mean to provoke further anxiety to an already provocative situation, but it is what is is, and which many- not all are in limbo with. I hope mel's post has provided more clarity now. I've said from the outset that given the opportunity I would pay back every penny I owed, but now, purely based on the way I have been treated - hell to the no
- bar a MASSIVE lottery win!! My creditors agreed my f&f 8 months ago, based on my presenting circumstances. They have significantly worsened - along with my health since then, and I'm currently fighting to keep my roof over my head as I'm still unable to work, and been told I'm ”unemployable”. As far as I'm concerned, all parties have agreed to 'draw a line' under my debt so I can move on - which I could have done if I had my CC. It's a very sore subject for me. Every has their own personal reasons for entering an IVA, and mine is pretty unusual I think. I will write my blog when it's all finally over, and then maybe it will make more sense... I sincerely wish us all well and hope we can soon be allowed to move on and use our energies more positively. x
Thank you again - I hope all works out for you & I look forward very much to reading your blog x
Hi rbc1010,
I too was in the same position as you and have finally made GT see sense and issue me with a DONC (Declaration Of No Claim) plus, I will NOT need to sign the Variation paperwork. I was getting more and more frustrated with the excuses GT were giving for witholding our CC and after several e-mails and phone calls managed to get it sorted.
I checked on my original contract that myself and wife signed and it stated that our IVA shall NOT run any longer that 72 months. I e-mailed my supervisor with these facts, stating I intended to make a complaint to the IPA as seeing as this time had elapsed without GT applying for an extension to the term, they could not delay the issuing of our CC, plus, any variation to the terms of contract would be meaningless as the contract has run its course.
I had an e-mail from GT's Recovery & Reorganisation manager saying that we do not need to sign the variation and our CC would be issued in due course. I then had a phone call from the Recovery & Reorganisation administrator a few days later asking me to sign the variation form as "it is in our best interest" to do so as otherwise it will delay the issuing of our CC ???
After a rather heated conversation I was told one of the reasons why it was "in our best interest" to sign, was that within the new terms of the variation was the ability of our supervisor to claim back the VAT on their fees as one IP had successfully won a court case to allow them to do this [:0]
So it seems, as a precedent has been set, other IP's have jumped on the bandwagon in an effort to claim back VAT, plus at least an extra 15% off any PPI claims recovered in addition to the threat of claiming any windfall in the future [V]
Check your contract and see how long the term is set to run for, contact your supervisor and ask for clarification if your creditors have been paid as they should have had their final meeting with them by now, and stick to your guns in regards to NOT signing the new agreement terms.
Best of luck to you.
